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Old 01-29-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
Three posters who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God have not found it within themselves to answer these 3 simple questions.

1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?

Are there any among those of you who deny the permissive will of God who can and will simply and honestly give direct answers to these 3 questions?

 
Old 01-29-2011, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,570,727 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Three posters who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God have not found it within themselves to answer these 3 simple questions.

1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?

Are there any among those of you who deny the permissive will of God who can and will simply and honestly give direct answers to these 3 questions?
Did not God himself ordain the death of Christ on the cross? Didn't Jesus say, "not my will but Thine be done". Even the earthly/flesh man Jesus had a will that was not necessarily thrilled with God's will at that point - but he was obedient even unto death. We also must submit obediently unto death (whether we want to or not).

Heartsong
 
Old 01-29-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Did not God himself ordain the death of Christ on the cross? Didn't Jesus say, "not my will but Thine be done". Even the earthly/flesh man Jesus had a will that was not necessarily thrilled with God's will at that point - but he was obedient even unto death. We also must submit obediently unto death (whether we want to or not).

Heartsong
Four posters have now danced around and side stepped these simple questions. Are there none among you who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God who are willing to give direct answers to these very simple and straight forward questions? Is that so difficult a thing to do?


1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?
 
Old 01-29-2011, 05:11 PM
 
17,742 posts, read 8,879,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is not responsible for man's disobedience.
If the creator of all things was not responsible for them, then why would anyone be punished or corrected?
Personally, I'd rather walk in the Spirit than follow your way of thinking.

Furthermore, I gave you an honest answer to the wholeness of your questions.
If you do not understand it, then I will use finger puppets to explain further if need be:

"If you are under his command, than he is responsible.
However, you will be held accountable."


The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live within the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.
 
Old 01-29-2011, 05:16 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
If the creator of all things was not responsible for them, then why would anyone be punished or corrected?
Personally, I'd rather walk in the Spirit than follow your way of thinking.

Furthermore, I gave you an honest answer to the wholeness of your questions.
If you do not understand it, then I will use finger puppets to explain further if need be:

"If you are under his command, than he is responsible.
However, you will be held accountable."


The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live within the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong.
God is not responsible for man's disbedience.

No you did not answer the questions. It still remains at four posters who are not willing to give direct answers to these simple questions.

1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?
 
Old 01-29-2011, 05:23 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Three posters who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God have not found it within themselves to answer these 3 simple questions.

1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?

Are there any among those of you who deny the permissive will of God who can and will simply and honestly give direct answers to these 3 questions?
Mike, yes to all three ... Now whats your point? God made his creation subject to corruption, that does not prove free will ...

Does believing that you have a free will and good decision making skills make you think that you are better than other people?

Would you like some glory to go along with your false doctrines, oh ye who boasts so mightily being while wise in your own conceit?
 
Old 01-29-2011, 05:40 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Mike, yes to all three ... Now whats your point? God made his creation subject to corruption, that does not prove free will. The simple fact is you are in denial of what the scriptures teach concerning Gods sovereignty, and you instead subscribe to the false doctrines of the traditions of men.
The point is simple and it is this;

God said 'Don't'. Man says 'Do'. God permits 'Do.' God's permissive will in contrast to His overruling will. Man's God given ability to act contrary to God's stated commands. Though man cannot defy God's sovereign overruling will. man is permitted by God to act in ways which are contrary to God's commands.

1.) God commanded man not to murder!!!

2.) Men murder anyway!!!

3.) Since men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, God then permits murder to occur against His stated command!!!

Leave Philisophical assertations of what free will is supposed to be out of it. Free will is simply the ability to choose to obey God or to disobey God. It is the ability to say 'yes' or to say 'no'.

God has no desire to rule over a race of Robby and Rhonda robots. God desires a relationship with His creatures based on reciprocal love. That requires free will on the part of His creatures.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-29-2011 at 05:53 PM..
 
Old 01-29-2011, 08:20 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,231 times
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This might not be directed at me, but I'm going to jump in here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is not responsible for man's disobedience.
First, we need to look at what scripture says regarding God's law of responsibility:

Exo 21:28 "And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
Exo 21:29 "If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.

Now, let's go back to Genesis for a moment:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

God not only created the serpent, but owns the serpent. It is owned by God:

Psa 50:10 "For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 "I know every bird of the mountains, And everything that moves in the field is Mine.

The serpent was God's. God owned the serpent that deceived the woman.

Do you see this? God, who created the serpent, and who owns the serpent, also knew the serpent was prone to mischief (goring like the ox).

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

The word crafty here in the Hebrew means: Subtle, cunning, and it is used in a bad sense. This serpent was like the ox that gores.

However, God, by his own determinate counsel, did not confine the serpent like His law commands.

Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

The serpent, like the unconfined ox that is prone to goring, deceived the woman and she, as well as Adam, both died (spiritually).

In a very real sense, Jesus (being God manifested in the flesh) came to fulfill that law of responsibility. Jesus said:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

So, to refute your first assumption that God is not responsible, He is responsible, but He, being the potter, and us being the clay, God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself. And He demonstrated it by fulfilling His law of responsibility.

Quote:
Can those who deny the permissive will of God and the free will of man, give a simple answer to these simple questions. Contrary to what the second poster (Jerwade) claims, there's nothing ambiguous about them. They are straight forward and clear. Easily answered. But the poster is right about one thing. There is no room for interpretation. They require direct and honest answers.
I'm not able to find your term "permissive will" of God in scripture. Can you find it for me? Or is this another one of your non-scriptural terms that we need to guess at as to what it means?

Quote:
1.) Did God command man not to murder?
Yes. Exodus 20:13

Quote:
2.) Do men murder anyway?
Yes. Read the newspaper...

Quote:
3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?
He does not "permit murder", or any other act of sin for that matter, as if being passive thereto, nor does God commit sin being active therein.

If we take the example given by scripture of Jesus being crucified and slain on the cross (Act 2:23), scripture tells us that God, through his determinate counsel and foreknowledge, controlled the events by giving Jesus up into the hands of wicked sinners:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

In this event, God was neither passive in the act nor active (by committing the act) therein. But rather the act was accomplished through His determinate counsel. And, this act was not only determined by God's counsel, but it was impossible for the event not to happen. The act of murder occurred in accordance with God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge. The foreknowledge being the result of God's determinate counsel. Ie: God knows the events that will occur based upon His determinate counsel.

Also, according to scripture, God's will (θέλημα), the noun derived from the Greek word thelo, was actively involved:

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

The verb sent is being used in the Greek active voice. God is active in His will of sending Jesus to die on the cross.

Mat 26:39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
 
Old 01-29-2011, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,570,727 times
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Mike wrote:
Quote:
3.) Since men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, God then permits murder to occur against His stated command!!!
Mike, no. If God permitted it anyway, there would not be any such thing as consequences or judgment. If we were "free" to sin, there would not be negative consequences to all our sinful actions (which there are). However, just because we believe in judgment does not mean we subscribe to your version of UNJUST judgment where God remains eternally furious because of man's sin. That sure is a hard shell of bondage you have bound tightly around your core being like a door with triple dead bolts locked!
 
Old 01-29-2011, 09:20 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The meanng of a word can be seen by how it is used in various passages. I have presented a number of passages in which both thelo and boulomai are used.

For instance, Romans 9:19 presents God's overruling will, while 1 Tim 2:4 presents God desire or wish that all men be saved.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, ''Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulēmati - God's absolute overruling will)?''

In 1 Tim 2:4 it is God's Thelo - wish, desire, that all men be saved. Not His absolute overruling will .

1 Tim 2:4 'who desires (thelei - desires,wishes) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In Matthew 1:19 the two words appear together.

Matt 1:19 'And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting (thelōn - wishing, desiring) to disgrace her, planned (eboulēthē) secretly to dismiss her.' Joseph had no desire - thelo, to disgrace Mary and so it was his intention - eboulethe, to privately send Mary away.
Actually, we went through all this a few days ago. Are you OK Mike? You really don't seem well to me. Are you sleeping at night or are you tossing and turning while thinking about these things?

Here are the posts where it was discussed:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/17587091-post50.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/17606932-post67.html

Quote:
It is God's desire that all men be saved, but it is not God's intention or plan to save anyone...
Actually, it is God's intention to save all men. You just refuse to believe it. It's called unbelief.

Quote:
...apart from the condition of the Gospel.
Quote:
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
Did someone say God will save using any other way? God will use His Spirit to regenerate all whom He wills in 1 Tim 2:4. And all whom He wills to save will be born of the Spirit, in the exact same way:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

And, those born of the Spirit will come to a full and saving knowledge of Christ (the Truth), as 1 Tim 2:4 also tells us:

1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
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