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Old 01-30-2011, 05:00 PM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7436

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Excuse me my friend, but no where have I ever said that "God is the author of sin". Those are your words, not mine. When YOU read the scriptures that speak of God's determinate counsel it is YOUR thoughts of blasphemy that arise in YOUR heart, not mine. Those are YOUR thoughts accusing God of being the author of sin, not mine.
Yes you did. You say that God is responsible for sin. That is saying that God is the author of sin.

Here's what I said in post 115.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is not responsible for man's disbedience.

No you did not answer the questions. It still remains at four posters who are not willing to give direct answers to these simple questions.

1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?
To which you replied;
[quote=AlabamaStorm;17639105]This might not be directed at me, but I'm going to jump in here...

So, to refute your first assumption that God is not responsible, He is responsible, but He, being the potter, and us being the clay, God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself. And He demonstrated it by fulfilling His law of responsibility.

I then said;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is not responsible for sin. God is not the author of sin. God is not responsible for man's disobedience. James 1:13-15; Job 34:10-12; Psalm 92:15; Sin comes from man's own volition.

God has NO SIN, NOR DOES HE AUTHOR IT! HE DOES NOT AUTHOR THE BREAKING OF HIS OWN NATURE OR ANTAGONISM AGAINST HIMSELF!

Satan was responsible for the first sin in the universe, and Adam was responsible for the first sin in the human race (Romans 5:12).

Adam tried to blame Eve for his sin, and Eve tried to blame the serpent. Operation Blame Game. (Gen 3:12-13). The serpent did in fact deceive Eve. But she was still responsible, just as Adam was responsible for his own decision to disobey God.

To say as you did that God is the author of sin, but that He does not permit sin is contradictory.

To which you said;

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
LOL...who said any of these things you mentioned? Read what I posted. You really need to do better Mike...LOL
You plainly said that God is responsible for mans disobedience,for mans sins, which is to say that God is the author of mans sins, and now deny it.

Following are comments that you have directed at me on this thread. They are immature and unprofessional. You cannot post without making rude and insulting comments as can be seen by the following. This indicates a lack of integrity.

Post #67 ''I think our friend Mike is just tossing up anything that will stick on the board...''

Post #81 It's amazing how you'll search commentaries and articles to bolster your faith in the teachings of men. LOL...linking Gill and Wesley at the same time...that's a first...

Post #86 I think our friend is making up his doctrines as he goes. He certainly does not read what he posts.

Post #94 I think someone needs to shut this thread down...before it becomes more profane...

Post #120 Actually, we went through all this a few days ago. Are you OK Mike? You really don't seem well to me. Are you sleeping at night or are you tossing and turning while thinking about these things?

Post #121 You do realize that this type of arrogance is really not conducive for encouraging a response, right?

...Are there none among you who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God.....

Blah, blah, blah...LOL...Pretending to be one of God's prophets is not going to help you here.

Post #124 I realize you did not make that term up. I don't really think you're capable of doing so...

Post #125 Let me ask you Mike...when you read a post, or even scripture for that matter, do you actually see the words? Or, are they simple images that flash through your mind and then somehow get confused with other thoughts you have....

I'm not being sarcastic here...I really want to know how you comprehend things...

Post #135 I'm not here for you Mike, or your attention, you know that... You're a simple tool that allows me opportunity to glorify Jesus and His word.

Comments like these don't encourage anyone to listen to anything that you have to say about anything. And they simply reveal the kind of person you are.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-30-2011 at 05:15 PM..

 
Old 01-30-2011, 05:10 PM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7436
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
This is speaking of sanctification, "he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the master". It is not speaking of the eternal decree of God, and His authority over all His works (as clay), spoken of in Rom 9:21.

Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?

If you'll look carefully, the vessels are made out of the same lump of clay. It is the potter, who has authority over the clay to make from the same lump of clay a vessel for honor or dishonor, at the potters discretion. The vessels do not make themselves, but rather are created vessels (of which are now no longer clay in 2 Tim 2:20). The honorable vessels are made for honor out of clay, and are prepared to every good work, IF:

2Ti 2:21 if, then, any one may cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified and profitable to the master--to every good work having been prepared,

And, we know that this will happen for all vessels made to honor. For it is God who works in the vessel for His own good pleasure:

Php 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

If nothing else, this should truly humble us before the absolute sovereignty of God over all His works, including you and I. The wonderful thing about this is that God has declared:

Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Psa 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD ; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Though we may differ in our doctrines, all will praise Jesus for his tender mercies!
Of course it's speaking of sanctification. Experiential sanctification. It's totally up to the volition of the believer whether he will be a vessel of honor or dishonor. God does not make some to be vessels of dishonor and others to be vessels of honor. God makes the vessels. The vessels (person's) own free will determines whether he will be honorable or dishonorable.
 
Old 01-30-2011, 06:00 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,674 times
Reputation: 327
[quote=Mike555;17648014]Yes you did. You say that God is responsible for sin. That is saying that God is the author of sin.

Here's what I said in post 115.

To which you replied;
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
This might not be directed at me, but I'm going to jump in here...

So, to refute your first assumption that God is not responsible, He is responsible, but He, being the potter, and us being the clay, God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself. And He demonstrated it by fulfilling His law of responsibility.

I then said;

To which you said;

You plainly said that God is responsible for mans disobedience,for mans sins, which is to say that God is the author of mans sins, and now deny it.

Following are comments that you have directed at me on this thread. They are immature and unprofessional. You cannot post without making rude and insulting comments as can be seen by the following. This indicates a lack of integrity.

Post #67 ''I think our friend Mike is just tossing up anything that will stick on the board...''

Post #81 It's amazing how you'll search commentaries and articles to bolster your faith in the teachings of men. LOL...linking Gill and Wesley at the same time...that's a first...

Post #86 I think our friend is making up his doctrines as he goes. He certainly does not read what he posts.

Post #94 I think someone needs to shut this thread down...before it becomes more profane...

Post #120 Actually, we went through all this a few days ago. Are you OK Mike? You really don't seem well to me. Are you sleeping at night or are you tossing and turning while thinking about these things?

Post #121 You do realize that this type of arrogance is really not conducive for encouraging a response, right?

...Are there none among you who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God.....

Blah, blah, blah...LOL...Pretending to be one of God's prophets is not going to help you here.

Post #124 I realize you did not make that term up. I don't really think you're capable of doing so...

Post #125 Let me ask you Mike...when you read a post, or even scripture for that matter, do you actually see the words? Or, are they simple images that flash through your mind and then somehow get confused with other thoughts you have....

I'm not being sarcastic here...I really want to know how you comprehend things...

Post #135 I'm not here for you Mike, or your attention, you know that... You're a simple tool that allows me opportunity to glorify Jesus and His word.

Comments like these don't encourage anyone to listen to anything that you have to say about anything. And they simply reveal the kind of person you are.
If you go back and read my post, I stated that God is responsible with regard to His Own determinate counsel.

God is not the cause for man's sin nor is God the author of man's sins. Read what I said in the post:

However, God, by his own determinate counsel, did not confine the serpent like His law commands.

God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself.


He does not "permit murder", or any other act of sin for that matter, as if being passive thereto, nor does God commit sin being active therein.

But rather the act was accomplished through His determinate counsel. And, this act was not only determined by God's counsel, but it was impossible for the event not to happen. The act of murder occurred in accordance with God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge.


That is what I said. And, it does not make God the author of sin, as you suppose. Nor does it make God responsible for what sinners freely do in acts of sin, as you suppose also.

Secondly, I posted in a following post the WCF, that makes very clear my own personal position regarding the eternal decrees of God: Here it is again:

I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

That is probably the best historical thought on Calvinism we have today. And, I happen to agree with it.


The issue YOU'RE having (not me) is your inability to come to terms with God's determinate counsel, as scripture declares it: Of Him who works all things according to His will. I'm very careful to rightly divide God's perfect and holy counsel from man's sin. Apparently you're not able to. YOU need to work on that my friend, not me.

And yes, I'll be direct with you when I sense you're simply pontificating your position rather than endeavoring to have an edifying discussion...OK?
 
Old 01-30-2011, 06:16 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,674 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Of course it's speaking of sanctification. Experiential sanctification. It's totally up to the volition of the believer whether he will be a vessel of honor or dishonor. God does not make some to be vessels of dishonor and others to be vessels of honor. God makes the vessels. The vessels (person's) own free will determines whether he will be honorable or dishonorable.
You need to read the text....here it is:

Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?

The potter's authority is over the clay while it is in that natural state of clay (as yet unformed). He then takes the clay (not yet a vessel) and makes it into a vessel to honor, or one to dishonor. God decides what type of vessel it will be used for. OK?

I realize this does not sit well with the thinking of the natural man, however it is what scripture proclaims.
 
Old 01-30-2011, 06:34 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,674 times
Reputation: 327
Actually, I don't believe God ever made vessels for dishonor, as in reprobation. This is one reason I'm also not a Calvinist. I believe that Adam was an original vessel of honor that became marred by sin. God retooled (if you will) that vessel, back into a vessel of honor by the work of Christ:

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel.
Jer 18:4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 18:6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel."
 
Old 01-30-2011, 06:41 PM
 
351 posts, read 283,395 times
Reputation: 118
Hi Alabama and Mike I see your going back and forth about if God is responsible for sin.

Who set the mark---------------------God

Who said to miss the mark was sin-----God

Who created man with a carnal
heart and mind------------------------God

Who knew man would fail
to hit the mark------------------------God

Who provided a savior(sin offering)
so man could be saved----------------God

Who is responsible for his creation
being subject to vanity--------------- God

The answer is pretty easy for me to figure out. But there is one more thing we need to realize

Who is accountable for sin-------------Man
because all his sins proceed out of his heart.
 
Old 01-30-2011, 08:05 PM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7436
[quote=AlabamaStorm;17648749]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes you did. You say that God is responsible for sin. That is saying that God is the author of sin.

Here's what I said in post 115.

To which you replied;


If you go back and read my post, I stated that God is responsible with regard to His Own determinate counsel.

God is not the cause for man's sin nor is God the author of man's sins. Read what I said in the post:

However, God, by his own determinate counsel, did not confine the serpent like His law commands.

God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself.


He does not "permit murder", or any other act of sin for that matter, as if being passive thereto, nor does God commit sin being active therein.

But rather the act was accomplished through His determinate counsel. And, this act was not only determined by God's counsel, but it was impossible for the event not to happen. The act of murder occurred in accordance with God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge.


That is what I said. And, it does not make God the author of sin, as you suppose. Nor does it make God responsible for what sinners freely do in acts of sin, as you suppose also.

Secondly, I posted in a following post the WCF, that makes very clear my own personal position regarding the eternal decrees of God: Here it is again:

I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

That is probably the best historical thought on Calvinism we have today. And, I happen to agree with it.


The issue YOU'RE having (not me) is your inability to come to terms with God's determinate counsel, as scripture declares it: Of Him who works all things according to His will. I'm very careful to rightly divide God's perfect and holy counsel from man's sin. Apparently you're not able to. YOU need to work on that my friend, not me.

And yes, I'll be direct with you when I sense you're simply pontificating your position rather than endeavoring to have an edifying discussion...OK?
To the contrary.

Here's what I said. ''God is not responsible for man's disbedience''.

Here's what you replied in post #118. ''So, to refute your first assumption that God is not responsible, He is responsible, but He, being the potter, and us being the clay, God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself. And He demonstrated it by fulfilling His law of responsibility.


I said that God is not responsible for man's disobedience and you said that He is responsible. You even went so far as to call it 'My assumption that God is not responsible.' And what you said afterward's only strengthens your belief that God is responsible for man's sin. And your belief that God is responsible for man's sin is shared by other Calvanists as well. I don't know if all Calvinists belief that but many do.


You do not have to try to 'sense' when I am stating my position. My position is the correct position. Your position perverts the word of God and blasphemes Him.

I have stated quite clearly that God's soverneign will cannot be resisted. And had you read my posts you would know that. What you refuse to get through your head is that God permits man to disobey Him. And the Scriptures are quite clear on that.

I know what I am talking about. And I know that your beliefs are completely unscriptural.

Now I will be direct with you. I am not interested in having a discussion with you. And I DON'T bother to read most of what you post. It's a waste of time. Calvinism is unscriptural.

And what you call being direct is deliberate insults and accusations. I listed a number of them.
 
Old 01-30-2011, 08:06 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,674 times
Reputation: 327
Here is how I (in blue) see the items you've listed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi Alabama and Mike I see your going back and forth about if God is responsible for sin.

Who set the mark---------------------God <----Determinate Counsel

Who said to miss the mark was sin-----God <----Determinate counsel

Who created man with a carnal
heart and mind------------------------God <---I would disagree with this. I believe God created man good, and man became carnal minded through sin.

Who knew man would fail
to hit the mark------------------------God <---Determinate Counsel

Who provided a savior(sin offering)
so man could be saved----------------God <---Determinate Counsel

Who is responsible for his creation
being subject to vanity--------------- God <---Determinate Counsel

The answer is pretty easy for me to figure out. But there is one more thing we need to realize

Who is accountable for sin-------------Man <---Agree
because all his sins proceed out of his heart.
Scripture tells us that God has a determinate counsel that works all things according to His will. How that determinate counsel of God's actually operates within the context of His will is not really made known to us. I think we just have to realize (by faith) that God's counsel works out of His goodness, kindness, mercy and love towards His creation.
 
Old 01-30-2011, 08:22 PM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7436
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
You need to read the text....here it is:

Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?

The potter's authority is over the clay while it is in that natural state of clay (as yet unformed). He then takes the clay (not yet a vessel) and makes it into a vessel to honor, or one to dishonor. God decides what type of vessel it will be used for. OK?

I realize this does not sit well with the thinking of the natural man, however it is what scripture proclaims.
No it is NOT OK. God knows the decisions that each person is going to make. He selects that person to be born. The person makes his own decisions which result in whether he will grow up spiritually or will remain spiritually immature.

2 Tim 2:20 'Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21] Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the master, prepared for every good work.

Now do you see the human responsibility. Experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth AFTER eternal salvation. The believer must choose to take in Bible doctrine and apply it so that he grows up-becomes a vessel of honor.

Calvinism it seems, wants to divest man of any responsibility and any accountability.

Now I am putting an end to any further discussions with you. I have other things to do.
 
Old 01-30-2011, 09:34 PM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Written in the form of using finger-puppets:

If you place a "cookie" dish on the table and proceed to tell your children not to eat from it are you not responsible?
If they eat from it are they not accountable?


Man's free will makes man solely responsible for sin. God is not responsible for sin. God is not the author of sin.
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