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Old 01-22-2011, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Some people see God as a grand puppet master who decides what we order in a restaurant, when we sleep, what we say and what color of car we buy. It is a convenient view point, because it allows the believer to blame God for their own sins. I remember talking about this with someone here who believes in a puppet master God, and the conversation ended up ugly with insults and disrespect being thrown about. If God chose his words for him, then God was guilty of disrespect, not the poster, and God failed to follow
His own teaching of loving your neighbor. Would that make sense? No, of course not. The poster chose his words and the poster was guilty of sin, not God.

God does indeed permit us to go against His desire. He desires us to love our neighbors, but at the same time He permits us to violate that rule. Jesus said He wanted to gather Israel under His wings, but they refused Him. God desires us to believe in Him, but the choice is ours.

Even universalists believe there is penalty for sin, but would it be fair to pay a penalty for something God made them do? No, you pay a penalty for making the wrong CHOICES

 
Old 01-22-2011, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Even universalists believe there is penalty for sin, but would it be fair to pay a penalty for something God made them do? No, you pay a penalty for making the wrong CHOICES
Finn,

You pay a penalty for being born. And being born into this world is not by choice. Yet we are born under a penalty of death that we INHERITED from Adam.

Nor do we choose to be BORN AGAIN. (The Spirit blows wherever it will...) We inherit the FREE GIFT because of Jesus Christ - not because of our choices. Why is that so hard for the many to understand and believe? Could it be because it goes against our human nature to admit that we have no POWER - no CONTROL over our destiny? Do we not by nature want CREDIT or doing the "right thing"? And does not God in his sovereignty place us all on even ground,,,


"Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways, And then all people will see the salvation sent from God." - Luke 3:5-6
 
Old 01-22-2011, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Nor do we choose to be BORN AGAIN. (The Spirit blows wherever it will...) We inherit the FREE GIFT because of Jesus Christ - not because of our choices.
Don't throw away the gift. Many choose to throw it away. Have you heard the parable about the wedding, where many people rejected the invitation? That was a free dinner, but they chose to not go.

Quote:
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways, And then all people will see the salvation sent from God." - Luke 3:5-6


It is a quote from Isaiah, and it talks about "God's people". All people = God's people.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-22-2011 at 06:17 PM..
 
Old 01-22-2011, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Don't throw away the gift. Many choose to throw it away. Have you heard the parable about the wedding, where many people rejected the invitation? That was a free dinner, but they chose to not go.



It is a quote from Isaiah, and it talks about "God's people". All people = God's people.
I think people who are spending their lives spreading fear and condemnation are throwing away the gift and trampling Christ under foot. They do so in ignorance. If they knew better, they would not do that. Why do people fall prey to that? Fear. Fear of punishment. There is no fear in love. (according to the scriptures) -- fear has to do with punishment. Those who are afraid are projecting their fear onto others.

Heartsong
 
Old 01-22-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I think people who are spending their lives spreading fear and condemnation are throwing away the gift and trampling Christ under foot. They do so in ignorance. If they knew better, they would not do that. Why do people fall prey to that? Fear. Fear of punishment. There is no fear in love. (according to the scriptures) -- fear has to do with punishment. Those who are afraid are projecting their fear onto others.

Heartsong
You are right, there is no fear in love. Christ took away my fears when I gave my life to Him. Praise the Lord.

I thought you said that the gift cannot be thrown away, but obviously I was wrong, since you clearly stated that it can be thrown away.
 
Old 01-22-2011, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You are right, there is no fear in love. Christ took away my fears when I gave my life to Him. Praise the Lord.

I thought you said that the gift cannot be thrown away, but obviously I was wrong, since you clearly stated that it can be thrown away.
I don't recall saying the gift of God cannot be thrown away. I think you mean something different than me when referring to throwing away the gift of God, however. I explained it in this thread. Some will be saved as by fire. I would much prefer to be of those who are storing up treasure in heaven. We CAN build - though we cannot lay any new foundation other than the one already laid (Christ Jesus). We will not all have the same glory (according to the scripture). I can still receive a greater or lesser reward than another without the need for anyone to be "eternally tormented in Dante's inferno", the fear of which, sadly, is the only thing motivating some people to make a show of serving God -- FEAR, FEAR, FEAR. If one's motivation is not pure, it is wood, hay and stubble (all those works will be burnt up).
 
Old 01-22-2011, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I don't recall saying the gift of God cannot be thrown away. I think you mean something different than me when referring to throwing away the gift of God, however. I explained it in this thread. Some will be saved as by fire.
Yes, those believers who have no works, will be saved as by fire, but obviously unbelievers are no saved at all since they declined the offer of salvation, or 'threw it away' as you put it.

This has been explained many times, and it is off topic anyway.
 
Old 01-22-2011, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,567,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, those believers who have no works, will be saved as by fire, but obviously unbelievers are no saved at all since they declined the offer of salvation, or 'threw it away' as you put it.

This has been explained many times, and it is off topic anyway.
Well, Finn, as you know, what Christ did on the cross is certainly AS efficacious as what Adam's sin did to the whole world. I will just leave it at that - you know where I stand (I stand on GRACE). That is the only place anyone will be able to stand.

Heartsong
 
Old 01-23-2011, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
Reputation: 9399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Well, Finn, as you know, what Christ did on the cross is certainly AS efficacious as what Adam's sin did to the whole world. I will just leave it at that - you know where I stand (I stand on GRACE). That is the only place anyone will be able to stand.

Heartsong
What has that got to do with Overruling, Directive, and Permissive Wills?
 
Old 01-23-2011, 09:03 AM
 
373 posts, read 310,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What has that got to do with Overruling, Directive, and Permissive Wills?
Simple. Those wills combined lead to grace.

Imagine the world as a huge maze.
We are somewhere in that maze and are free to choose to take any route we like. That's our free will.
But that free will of chosing the route is limited by the layout of the maze.

And one by one His sheep will find the exit of the maze.
Those who don't will be search for by the Good Shepherd.
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