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Interesting thread. For me I believe we have no "free will We have a will but it is a caused choice so it is not free.
Mike, in 2Peter 3:9 it say God is NOT willing that any be lost. Which of your three wills is that one. (not trying to be rude it is a legitimate quesrtion.)
This comes under God's Permissive will. God absolutely does not boulomai that any one perish. He thelei that all men be saved. God's boulomai can not be resisted. But God does not boulomai that anyone perish. God thelei that all men be saved. However, God's theleo can be resisted. I'll let you look up the words.
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In Roman 9 the question is asked who has resisted his will( should be who has resisted his intentions), because everyone has resisted his will, this is part of God's plan to show us how we are nothing without him, but no one has resisted his intention which is to save all his children.
To the contrary. It is not God's boulomai to save all mankind. It is His theleo that all men be saved.
And only the believer is an adopted child of God. The unbeliever is never said to be a child of God.
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God's plan is working exactly how it is supposed to. He has seen the ending before the begining so he knows all the choices we will make. If they are already known they can not be any other choice or God would be mistaken.
In Isaiah 55:11 So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that [for] which I sent it.
He says that his Word(Christ is the Word of God) will not go out of His mouth and come back empty but will accomplich all it was sent to do. Christ was sent to SAVE THE WORLD. Christ will do all his Father sent him to do.
Jesus was sent into the world to pay the penalty for man's sins. This He did. Now the issue in salvation is whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. If you believe, you are saved. If you don't, you are eternally lost.
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Alway remember He is the Potter we are the clay. Clay does not question he who formed it. O Man who are you to question God? Clay does not have free will.
You can only take an analogy so far.
Whether the clay is formed into a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor depends upon the volition of the clay.
You're right. That is why being sanctified is the process of our will becoming one with God's will. No doubt about that. The earthly/carnal nature is indeed at enmity with God. The scriptures do not teach otherwise. In fact, this sorrowful world proves that billions of personal and opposing wills creates chaos. That's why there is war and hatred and fighting. But when God is all in all, and all are One, we won't have this problem any longer. And it is only because of our flesh that we have these desires that cry out for "freedom" - thus proving that being lowered into the realm of mortality (born in Adam) is indeed a curse. There is only one way out of the mortal body - through death. So much for free will! I do thank God for the gift of faith, otherwise I'd be without hope (lost).
Ha, you were the only one who responded to this. Too bad you already agree, though.
Actually I consider describing God in such terms as 'He's a Big Boy' or 'He's the man upstairs', as blasphemous. He is eternal and infinite Almighty God. King of heaven and earth. He is not a 'big boy' or 'the man upstairs'.
Tongue in cheek; you're description of Him differs from your commentary about Him, imo.
In Acts 21:3-4 The Holy Spirit first warns Paul not to go to Jerusalem. Starting at verse 4 'And after looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.'
Of course God knew that Paul would disobey Him on the matter, and of course God allowed Paul to go. And of course God used Paul's disobedience to His own ends. The fact of the matter is that God had warned Paul not to go. Had Paul obeyed, Things would have worked out differently still in accordance with God's will. But He permitted Paul to go even though it was not His desire that Paul do so.
Where you err is when you say that it was not Gods desire that Paul should go, you are adding to the scriptures. That is what you believe and how you interpret what the scriptures are saying, but that is not what the scriptures themselves say. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that God desired that Paul should not go to Israel, it simply says that he was warned of what would happen if he did go. You really should stop adding your own words to the scriptures ...
A person could desire that another person do a thing, but also warn them of the consequences that they should suffer if the did it.
To say that warning someone of impending consequences should they do a thing is synonymous with not wanting them to do it is an outright logical fallacy ... Warning someone of the consequences of doing a thing does not preclude the desire of the one that warns them that they should do it.
For instance, i could ask a person to go mountain climbing with me, and desire them to do so, but add to it a warning that should they choose to do it, they might get hurt in the process ...
Or an officer asking for volunteers to do a suicide mission and them warning them up front of the consequences should they volunteer to do it does not mean that the officer does not want someone to volunteer to do it.
One need only refer back to my prior posts and threads to plainly see that I use Scripture constantly to back up what I say.
In Acts 21:3-4 The Holy Spirit first warns Paul not to go to Jerusalem. Starting at verse 4 'And after looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.'
At Ptolemais through a prophet by the name of Agabus, the Holy Spirit again warns Paul not to go to Jerusalem. (starting at verse 10) 'And as we were staying there for some days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11] And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, ''This is what the Holy Spirit says; 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.' ''
Paul was warned twice by God NOT to go to Jerusalem.
Paul had proposed to go to Rome after first going to Jerusalem (Acts 19:21). As already seen, The Holy Spirit had warned Paul not to go to Jerusalem.
In Acts 23:11 after having gone to Jerusalem anyway and suffering imprisonment, The Lord tells Paul that he must go to Rome. '...Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem, so you must witness at Rome also.''
It had been God's intention for Paul to go to Rome without first going to Jerusalem.
It is not neccessary to answer your many questions. I have shown you from the scriptures (contrary to your claims) that man does have free will. Since you insist on applying philosophical concepts to man's free will instead of a real world perspective on the matter, you will continue to deny the existence of free will.
As I have already said, I have always used Scripture to support what I say.
Scripture does not support your denial of man's free will in the slightest. Contrary to your claims, I have used the scriptures to show that man does have free will. This very thread proves that. And this very post proves that.
Mike, you didnt answer my question. Or maybe you did. My question was.
Where does it say that God told Paul to go to Rome?
Are you saying it is Acts 19:21? If not, what verse tells us that God told Paul to go to Rome.
Mike, you didnt answer my question. Or maybe you did. My question was.
Where does it say that God told Paul to go to Rome?
Are you saying it is Acts 19:21? If not, what verse tells us that God told Paul to go to Rome.
Joe
Originally Posted by Mike555
In Acts 23:11 after having gone to Jerusalem anyway and suffering imprisonment, The Lord tells Paul that he must go to Rome. '...Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem, so you must witness at Rome also.''
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
This comes under God's Permissive will. God absolutely does not boulomai that any one perish. He thelei that all men be saved. God's boulomai can not be resisted. But God does not boulomai that anyone perish. God thelei that all men be saved. However, God's theleo can be resisted. I'll let you look up the words.
To the contrary. It is not God's boulomai to save all mankind. It is His theleo that all men be saved.
And only the believer is an adopted child of God. The unbeliever is never said to be a child of God.
Jesus was sent into the world to pay the penalty for man's sins. This He did. Now the issue in salvation is whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. If you believe, you are saved. If you don't, you are eternally lost.
You can only take an analogy so far.
Whether the clay is formed into a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor depends upon the volition of the clay.
Hi Mike If God is not willing that any shall be lost then none shall be lost.
Show me where it says God is willing that any shall be lost. God will always get his way. I know we will not agree on this point and thats OK.
Why you think we are not all God's children is what I don't understand. He is the creater of everything and everybody. Just because a person refuses to acknowledge him at this time does not make him or her any less a child of the Creater. I know it does say that some are of their father the devil but this is a spiritual referance, God is the Father of all of us.
I did research the doctrine of divine degrees and of course I disagree with it
In 1 John 4:14 It says :14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. He was sent to save the world and will do it
If clay is made into a vessel of honor or dishonor is not up to the clay it is up to the potter. In other words God makes us into what He wants us to be.
What i see is the spirit warning Paul through the other apostles concerning his fate should he God to Jerusalem ...
That does not mean that God did not want him to Go there, as a matter of fact God always knew that Paul would go there ... What we have here is a testament to the power of God to work all things out for the best.
The fact of the matter is, Paul wrote Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians and Philippians while in prison.
And because of his own weakness which led him to go to Jerusalem after which he was imprisoned, Paul was inspired to write many things he otherwise might not ever have written.
EVERYTHING happens for a reason, and God had a perfectly good reason for allowing Paul to go to Jerusalem ... Just like he had a perfectly good reason for letting Adam eat the fruit of knowledge.
The best example of this is Jonah ... Jonah resisted God, and to what effect? Had Jonah not resisted God, then he would never have sailed on the stormy sea and he never would have been thrown over board and he never would have been swallowed by the fish and spat out on the shores of Nineveh ... That is the very thing that caused the people of Nineveh to repent, the miracle of seeing Jonah carried to shore in the belly of a fish and brought back to life in order that he might prophecy to Nineveh ... It all worked out according to the will of God.
You cant escape the plan of God, what is otherwise known as fate, the more you try to resist, the more you cause it to happen in spite of yourself.
God does not make mistakes, God is never surprised, and nothing is outside of the realm of Gods influence.
The only reason why many people do not understand this is because it is part of Gods plan that many should be temporarily deceived.
I agree with this interpretation. It was a warning of prophecy by the Spirit of what awaited Paul should he go to Jerusalem.
We know that it was God's will that Paul ALSO go to Jerusalem (though with much tribulation), as Paul was told here:
Act 23:11 And on the following night, the Lord having stood by him, said, `Take courage, Paul, for as thou didst fully testify the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so it behoveth thee also at Rome to testify.'
The word "ALSO" would not be used here if it had not been God's will for Paul to have ALSO gone to Jerusalem.
To the contrary. It is not God's boulomai to save all mankind. It is His theleo that all men be saved.
Actually, scripture gives us a good example of how these two Greek words are used in juxtaposition:
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth (θελει), He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth (θελει), He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel (βουληματι) who hath resisted?'
God's will (thelo) emerges from His counsel (boulema).
The hardening of Pharaoh's heart (verse 18) was by God's will (θελει) in accordance with His counsel (βουληματι). Of which Pharaoh could not resist (verse 19).
It's the same will (θελει) spoken here by Christ:
Joh 5:21 `For, as the Father doth raise the dead, and doth make alive, so also the Son doth make alive whom he willeth;
This will (thelo) cannot be resisted anymore than one can resist being resurrected from the grave. The guy in the grave has no say, decision or resistance to what God will do.
Further, James tells us how we should understand the will (thelo) of God:
Jas 4:13 Go, now, ye who are saying, `To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city, and will pass there one year, and traffic, and make gain;'
Jas 4:14 who do not know the thing of the morrow; for what is your life? for it is a vapour that is appearing for a little, and then is vanishing;
Jas 4:15 instead of your saying, `If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;'
It is not according to what man wills, as in: "To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city....", but rather it is what the Lord wills: "If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;
In like manner, if it is God's will (thelo) to save all men (which it is, 1 Tim 2:4), then this will that emerges from God's counsel (boulema) cannot, in the end, be resisted (Rom 9:19).
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