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Old 01-26-2011, 01:08 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,557,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
This will (thelo) cannot be resisted anymore than one can resist being resurrected from the grave. The guy in the grave has no say, decision or resistance to what God will do.
Holy Ghost revival breaking out - pardon me!

Hallelujah!!

 
Old 01-26-2011, 01:31 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,684,959 times
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Indeed there is a freedom of mans will and it is true that many do not understand that God is sovereign and man has that freedom at the same time. It is equally often not understood that man can have free will and God will accomplish his desire of saving every last one of us.

When some argue that God does not force himself upon man that is an inconsistancy with that approach. I certainly did not choose to be born, so God created me and I didn't have a say, that is the ultimate act of forcing ones will upon another being.

He certainly did not give me a choice about all the things that have happened to me in my life that he supposedly planned(according to some) or foreknew them all, and yet, here I am being born in a family I didn't choose, being subjected to various evils that I had no control over. So the context of the argument is false, God does indeed force his will upon man, however it is God, and since his ways are not our ways, despite the illogical implications it is clearly logical that God can accomplish saving mankind in any manner he chooses.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 05:00 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,551,735 times
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Quote:
Ephesians 1:4-6 “For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.
These three little words pretty much settle the argument for me. We did not choose God of our own free will. He chose us, in spite of our free will. This is where "irresistible grace" enters the scene.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 09:27 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,253 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Originally Posted by Mike555
In Acts 23:11 after having gone to Jerusalem anyway and suffering imprisonment, The Lord tells Paul that he must go to Rome. '...Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem, so you must witness at Rome also.''

Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
Yes, but this is when he had already went to Jerusalem. You are correct, this is indeed stating for Paul will go to Rome. I am only asking because the OP states this.

Quote:
God permitted the apostle Paul to defy Him. Instead of going to Rome in A.D. 58 as God had directed him to, Paul decided instead to go to Jerusalem. God permitted this—up to a point. (Acts chapter 21). Concerning Paul's defiance of the Lord see the following site:[emph. joe's]
This is impying that God had told Paul to go to Rome BEFORE he went to Jerusalem. In Acts 23:11, Paul is THERE. Mike says the same thing here....

Quote:
Did God tell Paul to go to Rome? YES. Did Paul go to Rome at that time? NO.


Still implying that God told Paul to go to Rome BEFORE Paul was even in Jerusalem. The only verse I could find that states that Paul MUST go to Rome is:

Act 19:21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

Which implies that Paul is purposed IN THE SPIRIT to go to Jerusalem AND Rome. If I am to be told that this is not the Spirit of God here, then according to the OP, there must be a verse that substantiates this claim:

"God had directed him to [Rome], Paul decided instead to go to Jerusalem" (emph. mine)
 
Old 01-26-2011, 09:33 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Where you err is when you say that it was not Gods desire that Paul should go, you are adding to the scriptures. That is what you believe and how you interpret what the scriptures are saying, but that is not what the scriptures themselves say. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that God desired that Paul should not go to Israel, it simply says that he was warned of what would happen if he did go. You really should stop adding your own words to the scriptures ...

A person could desire that another person do a thing, but also warn them of the consequences that they should suffer if the did it.

To say that warning someone of impending consequences should they do a thing is synonymous with not wanting them to do it is an outright logical fallacy ... Warning someone of the consequences of doing a thing does not preclude the desire of the one that warns them that they should do it.

For instance, i could ask a person to go mountain climbing with me, and desire them to do so, but add to it a warning that should they choose to do it, they might get hurt in the process ...

Or an officer asking for volunteers to do a suicide mission and them warning them up front of the consequences should they volunteer to do it does not mean that the officer does not want someone to volunteer to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I agree with this interpretation. It was a warning of prophecy by the Spirit of what awaited Paul should he go to Jerusalem.

We know that it was God's will that Paul ALSO go to Jerusalem (though with much tribulation), as Paul was told here:

Act 23:11 And on the following night, the Lord having stood by him, said, `Take courage, Paul, for as thou didst fully testify the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so it behoveth thee also at Rome to testify.'

The word "ALSO" would not be used here if it had not been God's will for Paul to have ALSO gone to Jerusalem.
This I think will be my last post concerning Paul's visit to Jerusalem in spite of God's warning. If you choose not to believe that Paul went against God's desire, that is your right.

Paul had become overly zealous to witness to the Jews. For that reason he wasn't listening to God, although he was convinced he was doing the right thing by going to Jerusalem at that time.

Paul was appointed by God as an apostle to the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that Paul didn't have a ministry to the Jews, but he was to witness to the Gentiles. God knew that the Jews wouldn't listen to Paul if he went to Jerusalem, and this is recorded in Acts 22:17-21. Paul here is giving his defense before the Jews. ''And it came about when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I fell into a trance, 18] and I saw Him saying to me, ''Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.'' This was an imperative command. And after God gave this command to Paul, Paul then makes the following remarks; 19] And I said, 'Lord, they themselves understand that in one synagogue after another I used to imprison and beat those who believed in Thee. 20] 'And when the blood of Thy witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing by approving, and watching out for the cloaks of those who were slaying him.' At this point, God again commanded Paul, 21] ''And He said to me, 'GO!, For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'' Christ had work for Paul to do elsewhere, which required haste; and he was not to continue to stay in Jerusalem useless and unprofitable. His own countrymen considered Paul apostate and were not going to listen to him. And the Christians were going to listen to him. He never was supposed to have gone there in the first place.





Now back to Acts 21:4. In Acts 21:3-4 The Holy Spirit first warns Paul not to go to Jerusalem. It was God's desire, His wish, that Paul not go there. Starting at verse 4 'And after looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.'

God allowed Paul to go to Jerusalem despite being warned twice by the Holy Spirit not to. But in Jerusalem, God then gave Paul an imperative command to leave Jerusalem immediately and go to the Gentiles - to Rome. Acts 23:11 'But on the night immediately following, the Lord stood at his side and said, ''Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem (unproductively; see Acts 22:18), so you must witness at Rome also.''

In another post I will give another example of God's permissive will.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 09:51 PM
 
17,750 posts, read 8,883,926 times
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Selective perception undoubtedly plays a role in our interpretations.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 10:11 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This I think will be my last post concerning Paul's visit to Jerusalem in spite of God's warning. If you choose not to believe that Paul went against God's desire, that is your right.

Paul had become overly zealous to witness to the Jews. For that reason he wasn't listening to God, although he was convinced he was doing the right thing by going to Jerusalem at that time.

Paul was appointed by God as an apostle to the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that Paul didn't have a ministry to the Jews, but he was to witness to the Gentiles. God knew that the Jews wouldn't listen to Paul if he went to Jerusalem, and this is recorded in Acts 22:17-21. Paul here is giving his defense before the Jews. ''And it came about when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I fell into a trance, 18] and I saw Him saying to me, ''Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.'' This was an imperative command. And after God gave this command to Paul, Paul then makes the following remarks; 19] And I said, 'Lord, they themselves understand that in one synagogue after another I used to imprison and beat those who believed in Thee. 20] 'And when the blood of Thy witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing by approving, and watching out for the cloaks of those who were slaying him.' At this point, God again commanded Paul, 21] ''And He said to me, 'GO!, For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'' Christ had work for Paul to do elsewhere, which required haste; and he was not to continue to stay in Jerusalem useless and unprofitable. His own countrymen considered Paul apostate and were not going to listen to him. And the Christians were going to listen to him. He never was supposed to have gone there in the first place.

Now back to Acts 21:4. In Acts 21:3-4 The Holy Spirit first warns Paul not to go to Jerusalem. It was God's desire, His wish, that Paul not go there. Starting at verse 4 'And after looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem.'

God allowed Paul to go to Jerusalem despite being warned twice by the Holy Spirit not to. But in Jerusalem, God then gave Paul an imperative command to leave Jerusalem immediately and go to the Gentiles - to Rome. Acts 23:11 'But on the night immediately following, the Lord stood at his side and said, ''Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem (unproductively; see Acts 22:18), so you must witness at Rome also.''

In another post I will give another example of God's permissive will.
There is nothing in the scriptures that agrees with your commentary. Nothing. Here is what verse 21:4 tells us:

Act 21:4 And having found out the disciples, we tarried there seven days, and they said to Paul, through the Spirit, not to go up to Jerusalem;

The Spirit of Christ did not forbid Paul to go, but rather gave prophecy to the other disciples concerning what would happen to Paul in Jerusalem. Look here:

Act 21:11 and he having come unto us, and having taken up the girdle of Paul, having bound also his own hands and feet, said, `Thus saith the Holy Spirit, The man whose is this girdle--so shall the Jews in Jerusalem bind, and they shall deliver him up to the hands of nations.'
Act 21:12 And when we heard these things, we called upon him --both we, and those of that place--not to go up to Jerusalem,

The Spirit of Christ made known what would happen to Paul. It was the disciples who told Paul not to go when they heard what would happen to Paul. However, the Holy Spirit did not forbid Paul to go.

The Spirit did on occasion, prohibit the proclamation of the Gospel in Asia (minor), but not Jerusalem:

Act 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Perhaps you're confusing the two...
 
Old 01-26-2011, 11:19 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
You're right. That is why being sanctified is the process of our will becoming one with God's will. No doubt about that. The earthly/carnal nature is indeed at enmity with God. The scriptures do not teach otherwise. In fact, this sorrowful world proves that billions of personal and opposing wills creates chaos. That's why there is war and hatred and fighting. But when God is all in all, and all are One, we won't have this problem any longer. And it is only because of our flesh that we have these desires that cry out for "freedom" - thus proving that being lowered into the realm of mortality (born in Adam) is indeed a curse. There is only one way out of the mortal body - through death. So much for free will! I do thank God for the gift of faith, otherwise I'd be without hope (lost).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obamuchadnezzar View Post
Ha, you were the only one who responded to this. Too bad you already agree, though.

Now, I wonder what Mike thinks about it.
There are three stages of sanctification. 1) Positional Sanctification. 2) Experiential Sanctification. 3) Ultimate Sanctification.

1) Positional Sanctification. This is the initial stage of sanctification. It occurs at the moment of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:18 ''...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.''

1 Cor 1:30 'But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

1 Cor 6:11 'And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lod Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

To be sanctified means to be set apart unto God. And positional sanctification takes place at the moment of faith in Christ. At the point that a person places his faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit takes that person and places him into union with Christ. The believer is then positionally perfect. Every believer is a saint from the moment of faith in Christ.

Heb 10:10 'By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.'

Heb 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

2) Experiential Sanctification. Experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth of the believer after salvation and takes place through out the believer's life through the inculcation of Bible doctrine and its application of life. (1 Thess 4:1-8; 1 Pet 1:14-16; John 17:17; Eph 5; 2 Tim 2:19-22; 2 Cor 7:1).

3) Ultimate Sanctification. Ultimate sanctification has to do with the resurrection of the body. (Phil 3:21; 1 John 3:2; Romans 8:29).

Here is a source with more information concerning sanctification.

Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

Man's free will is the issue in whether a person will respond to the gospel with positive volition or react with negitive volition.

And man's free will is the determining factor in whether a believer will advance spiritually after salvation - experiential sanctification.

Again, free will simply means that man is able to make a choice between one thing and another thing. Man can choose to come to God because God has first revealed Himself to man. First in creation, and then through the Gospel message under the common grace ministry of God the Holy Spirit. Man is free to say 'yes' or 'no'.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,571,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
These three little words pretty much settle the argument for me. We did not choose God of our own free will. He chose us, in spite of our free will. This is where "irresistible grace" enters the scene.
And because you understand this, you have, by God's grace, entered into his rest.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 11:35 PM
 
20,301 posts, read 15,654,940 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
There is nothing in the scriptures that agrees with your commentary. Nothing. Here is what verse 21:4 tells us:

Act 21:4 And having found out the disciples, we tarried there seven days, and they said to Paul, through the Spirit, not to go up to Jerusalem;

The Spirit of Christ did not forbid Paul to go, but rather gave prophecy to the other disciples concerning what would happen to Paul in Jerusalem. Look here:

Act 21:11 and he having come unto us, and having taken up the girdle of Paul, having bound also his own hands and feet, said, `Thus saith the Holy Spirit, The man whose is this girdle--so shall the Jews in Jerusalem bind, and they shall deliver him up to the hands of nations.'
Act 21:12 And when we heard these things, we called upon him --both we, and those of that place--not to go up to Jerusalem,

The Spirit of Christ made known what would happen to Paul. It was the disciples who told Paul not to go when they heard what would happen to Paul. However, the Holy Spirit did not forbid Paul to go.

The Spirit did on occasion, prohibit the proclamation of the Gospel in Asia (minor), but not Jerusalem:

Act 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Perhaps you're confusing the two...
Post #55 says it all. READ it. I have given the pertinent information. I said I am done with that topic. Believe what you will.
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