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Old 01-27-2011, 01:16 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi Mike If God is not willing that any shall be lost then none shall be lost.
Show me where it says God is willing that any shall be lost. God will always get his way. I know we will not agree on this point and thats OK.
God is NOT willing that any should be lost. But all who refuse to receive Christ as Savior remain under condemnation, and if they die without Christ, they WILL be eternally lost. The Scriptures are clear on this. You know the passages.


Quote:
Why you think we are not all God's children is what I don't understand. He is the creater of everything and everybody. Just because a person refuses to acknowledge him at this time does not make him or her any less a child of the Creater. I know it does say that some are of their father the devil but this is a spiritual referance, God is the Father of all of us.
God is not the Father of us all. God is the Father only of those who receive Christ as Savior and are therefore adopted as sons. The believers sonship is through adoption only.

As the Scripture says, believers alone are adopted into the family of God. The following passages all refer to believers only. Not to unbelievers.

Rom 8:15 'For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ''Abba! Father! 16] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

Ephesians 1:5; Gal 4:5.

Quote:
I did research the doctrine of divine degrees and of course I disagree with it

In 1 John 4:14 It says :14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. He was sent to save the world and will do it
Jesus is the Savior of the world in the sense that He died for the sins of the world thus elimination sin as an issue in salvation. The issue in salvation is whether a person will receive Christ as Savior or not. If He does, then he is saved. If he doesn't then he is eternally lost.

Quote:
If clay is made into a vessel of honor or dishonor is not up to the clay it is up to the potter. In other words God makes us into what He wants us to be.

No. As I said. An analogy can only be taken so far. God makes the vessel. But whether the vessel (person) is made into a vessel of honor or dishonor is totally up to the person. Observe the volition of the vessel in 2 Tim 2:20. 'Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21] Therefore if a man cleanses himself from these things (previously referred to in the passage), he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 22]Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.'

As you can see from the passage, it is up to the believer what kind of vessel he becomes.

Whether the believer becomes a vessel of honor or dishonor has to do with the issue of experiential sanctifcation. Please refer to post #58 in which I explain the different stages of sanctification.



Following are some recent Bible classes by Robert McLaughlin on the subject of vessels of mercy.

Wed Jan 05, 2011 - The riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy. - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ Part 1

Fri Jan 07, 2011 - The riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory. - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ Part 2

Sun Jan 09, 2011 - The riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy; Prt 3. which He prepared beforehand for glory. - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ Part 3


Wed Jan 19, 2011 - The riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which he prepared beforehand; Part 4. - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ Part 4

Fri Jan 21, 2011 - The riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for His glory. Prt 5. - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ Part 5

Sun Jan 23, 2011 - The riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for His glory. Prt 6. - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ Part 6

Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:20 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,217 times
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Hi MIke I know we will not agree and thats ok. I still have trouble understanding how you can agree that God is NOT willing that any be lost but that they will be lost by their choice therfore overuling the will of God.
It makes God look like a weak willed being not the creater of all.

And it does not say Jesus was just sent to die for our sins and then it is up to us. The Bible clearly says Jesus was sent by the Father to be the Savior of the world. He was not sent to offer salvation to the world, he was sent to save the world. He will complete the work his Father sent him to do. That is the good news.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:50 AM
 
373 posts, read 310,676 times
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Some people spend whole their life searching for darkness in the Book of Light.

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
==> Father gives full control over creation to Jesus
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
==> Task of Jesus is give eternal life to 100% of what Father has given Him.
==> Meaning 100% of creation.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
==> his people is who creation.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
==> And Jesus accomplishes His task
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:59 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,217 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
Some people spend whole their life searching for darkness in the Book of Light.

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
==> Father gives full control over creation to Jesus
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
==> Task of Jesus is give eternal life to 100% of what Father has given Him.
==> Meaning 100% of creation.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
==> his people is who creation.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
==> And Jesus accomplishes His task
Very Well Said
 
Old 01-27-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,493 posts, read 31,888,415 times
Reputation: 9411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi MIke I know we will not agree and thats ok. I still have trouble understanding how you can agree that God is NOT willing that any be lost but that they will be lost by their choice therfore overuling the will of God.
It makes God look like a weak willed being not the creater of all.

Every time you sin, you overrule the will of God. Have you ever told a lie? If you have, then you have gone against the will of God. He permits it.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 01:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This comes under God's Permissive will. God absolutely does not boulomai that any one perish. He thelei that all men be saved. God's boulomai can not be resisted. But God does not boulomai that anyone perish. God thelei that all men be saved. However, God's theleo can be resisted. I'll let you look up the words.



To the contrary. It is not God's boulomai to save all mankind. It is His theleo that all men be saved.

And only the believer is an adopted child of God. The unbeliever is never said to be a child of God.



I've already gone over the doctrine of divine decreess with you on post #190 of the following thread; 10 reasons why i think eternall hell is immpossible




Jesus was sent into the world to pay the penalty for man's sins. This He did. Now the issue in salvation is whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. If you believe, you are saved. If you don't, you are eternally lost.




You can only take an analogy so far.

Whether the clay is formed into a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor depends upon the volition of the clay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Actually, scripture gives us a good example of how these two Greek words are used in juxtaposition:

Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth (θελει), He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth (θελει), He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel (βουληματι) who hath resisted?'

God's will (thelo) emerges from His counsel (boulema).
The hardening of Pharaoh's heart (verse 18) was by God's will (θελει) in accordance with His counsel (βουληματι). Of which Pharaoh could not resist (verse 19).

It's the same will (θελει) spoken here by Christ:

Joh 5:21 `For, as the Father doth raise the dead, and doth make alive, so also the Son doth make alive whom he willeth;

This will (thelo) cannot be resisted anymore than one can resist being resurrected from the grave. The guy in the grave has no say, decision or resistance to what God will do.

Further, James tells us how we should understand the will (thelo) of God:

Jas 4:13 Go, now, ye who are saying, `To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city, and will pass there one year, and traffic, and make gain;'
Jas 4:14 who do not know the thing of the morrow; for what is your life? for it is a vapour that is appearing for a little, and then is vanishing;
Jas 4:15 instead of your saying, `If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;'

It is not according to what man wills, as in: "To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city....", but rather it is what the Lord wills: "If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;

In like manner, if it is God's will (thelo) to save all men (which it is, 1 Tim 2:4), then this will that emerges from God's counsel (boulema) cannot, in the end, be resisted (Rom 9:19).
Indeed, according to Prof. Edward Robinson, as is detailed in his Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1850), Mike has the difference between "boulomai" and "thelei" completely mixed up ...


According to Prof. Robinson its the other way around, "thelei" actually represents the "active volition" and purpose, while "boulomai" represents a more "passive desire" ...

We this find on pg. 368 of his lexicon concerning the word "theloo", from whence "thelei" is derived ...

Quote:
Theloo - to will to wish to desire, implying active voltion and purpose, and thus differing from boulomai"
Now the best example of how boulomai is the passive desire or wish is how Paul uses the word in 1 Tim 2:8, where he says ...


1Tim 2:8
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling
 
Old 01-27-2011, 03:09 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,231 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Indeed, according to Prof. Edward Robinson, as is detailed in his Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1850), Mike has the difference between "boulomai" and "thelei" completely mixed up ...

According to Prof. Robinson its the other way around, "thelei" actually represents the "active volition" and purpose, while "boulomai" represents a more "passive desire" ...

We this find on pg. 368 of his lexicon concerning the word "theloo", from whence "thelei" is derived ...

Now the best example of how boulomai is the passive desire or wish is how Paul uses the word in 1 Tim 2:8, where he says ...

1Tim 2:8
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling
I think our friend Mike is just tossing up anything that will stick on the board...

Here is another example of "thelo" and "boulomai" being used in juxtaposition that gives us even further insight as to how these Greek words are used:

Mat 1:19 and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing (θελων) to make her an example, did wish (εβουληθη) privately to send her away.

In this example, thelo is the active will of Joseph that emerges from the boulomai wish or desire that he had deep within. It's as if thelo comes out of one's soul and boulomai from the spirit.

One thing I also noticed was that in 1 Tim 2:4, thelo is used in the indicative mood. Here is what my Greek grammar data tells me concerning this:

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

And, here is another definition of the Greek indicative mood cribbed (stolen) from the internet:

Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time..

I don't believe scripture lies. So, this makes 1 Tim 2:4 a done deal in my book! Praise God my friend.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 06:06 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Indeed, according to Prof. Edward Robinson, as is detailed in his Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1850), Mike has the difference between "boulomai" and "thelei" completely mixed up ...


According to Prof. Robinson its the other way around, "thelei" actually represents the "active volition" and purpose, while "boulomai" represents a more "passive desire" ...

We this find on pg. 368 of his lexicon concerning the word "theloo", from whence "thelei" is derived ...



Now the best example of how boulomai is the passive desire or wish is how Paul uses the word in 1 Tim 2:8, where he says ...


1Tim 2:8
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I think our friend Mike is just tossing up anything that will stick on the board...

Here is another example of "thelo" and "boulomai" being used in juxtaposition that gives us even further insight as to how these Greek words are used:

Mat 1:19 and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing (θελων) to make her an example, did wish (εβουληθη) privately to send her away.

In this example, thelo is the active will of Joseph that emerges from the boulomai wish or desire that he had deep within. It's as if thelo comes out of one's soul and boulomai from the spirit.

One thing I also noticed was that in 1 Tim 2:4, thelo is used in the indicative mood. Here is what my Greek grammar data tells me concerning this:

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

And, here is another definition of the Greek indicative mood cribbed (stolen) from the internet:

Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time..

I don't believe scripture lies. So, this makes 1 Tim 2:4 a done deal in my book! Praise God my friend.
Boulomai has the stronger meaning over thelo.

In Matthew 1:19 the two words appear together.

Matt 1:19 'And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting (thelōn - wishing, desiring) to disgrace her, planned (eboulēthē) secretly to dismiss her. Matthew 1:19 Biblos Interlinear Bible


In Romans 7:15 'thelo' is used in expressing Pauls desire.

Rom 7:15 'For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for what I want (thelō - desire, wish) that I do not, but what I hate, that I do.

In Romans 9:19 God's sovereign will is in view.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, ''Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulēmati - God's absolute overruling will)?''



In 1 Tim 2:4 it is God's Thelo - wish, desire, that all men be saved. Not His absolute overruling will .

1 Tim 2:4 'who desires (thelei - desires,wishes) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Both Vines and Strong's recognize the stronger meaning of Boulomai.

Vines Greek New Testament Dictionary. boulomai

Strong's; Strong's Greek: 1014. ???????? (boulomai) -- to will

I can do more on this, but people can do their own research.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are three stages of sanctification. 1) Positional Sanctification. 2) Experiential Sanctification. 3) Ultimate Sanctification.

1) Positional Sanctification. This is the initial stage of sanctification. It occurs at the moment of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:18 ''...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.''

1 Cor 1:30 'But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

1 Cor 6:11 'And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lod Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

To be sanctified means to be set apart unto God. And positional sanctification takes place at the moment of faith in Christ. At the point that a person places his faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit takes that person and places him into union with Christ. The believer is then positionally perfect. Every believer is a saint from the moment of faith in Christ.

Heb 10:10 'By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.'

Heb 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

2) Experiential Sanctification. Experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth of the believer after salvation and takes place through out the believer's life through the inculcation of Bible doctrine and its application of life. (1 Thess 4:1-8; 1 Pet 1:14-16; John 17:17; Eph 5; 2 Tim 2:19-22; 2 Cor 7:1).

3) Ultimate Sanctification. Ultimate sanctification has to do with the resurrection of the body. (Phil 3:21; 1 John 3:2; Romans 8:29).

Here is a source with more information concerning sanctification.

Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

Man's free will is the issue in whether a person will respond to the gospel with positive volition or react with negitive volition.

And man's free will is the determining factor in whether a believer will advance spiritually after salvation - experiential sanctification.

Again, free will simply means that man is able to make a choice between one thing and another thing. Man can choose to come to God because God has first revealed Himself to man. First in creation, and then through the Gospel message under the common grace ministry of God the Holy Spirit. Man is free to say 'yes' or 'no'.
I was referring to my post on page three...the one with the gun analogy. I wanted to see what you had to say about that.

Yes, having the choice to do good or evil is free will, but so what? This doesn't make your god look anymore inviting than he already is. When you say "free will," it's implied that whoever's allowing you it will respect your choices.

What you are essentially saying: In Nazi Germany, Jews had the choice to stay inside of the country and wait to be sent to concentration camps OR they could have chosen to run away. See?! The Jews had free will! The Nazi government allowed them that free will...under its overruling, permissive, and directing ruling of course!

How is your god not the same thing? Having myriads of choices and being able to choose whichever one you want is nothing to praise when only ONE of those choices saves you from eternal suffering.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 08:40 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,231 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Boulomai has the stronger meaning over thelo.

In Matthew 1:19 the two words appear together.

Matt 1:19 'And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting (thelōn - wishing, desiring) to disgrace her, planned (eboulēthē) secretly to dismiss her. Matthew 1:19 Biblos Interlinear Bible

In Romans 7:15 'thelo' is used in expressing Pauls desire.

Rom 7:15 'For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for what I want (thelō - desire, wish) that I do not, but what I hate, that I do.

In Romans 9:19 God's sovereign will is in view.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, ''Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulēmati - God's absolute overruling will)?''

In 1 Tim 2:4 it is God's Thelo - wish, desire, that all men be saved. Not His absolute overruling will .

1 Tim 2:4 'who desires (thelei - desires,wishes) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Both Vines and Strong's recognize the stronger meaning of Boulomai.

Vines Greek New Testament Dictionary. boulomai

Strong's; Strong's Greek: 1014. ???????? (boulomai) -- to will

I can do more on this, but people can do their own research.
I think you've probably done enough , and you've entirely missed the points I've raised. At least you've not really addressed them as yet.

My emphasis is not whether God's counsel is stronger than His will (or desire), it's not, but rather to show that these two attributes of God work together. Each works in conjunction with the other. God's will and desire (thelo) emerges and rises out of the planning and purposes of His counsel (boulomai).

The counsel and will of God are not two competing entities that are fighting against one another, as you would seem to have us believe. But rather they illustrate that what God plans and purposes, He actively causes to work according to the counsel of His will:

Eph 1:11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

What God wills and desires, such as the salvation of all men so clearly stated in 1 Tim 2:4, emerges out of His purposed counsel. And that proposed counsel of God, in the end, will have achieved God's will and all of He's desires.
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