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Old 01-27-2011, 08:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obamuchadnezzar View Post
I was referring to my post on page three...the one with the gun analogy. I wanted to see what you had to say about that.

Yes, having the choice to do good or evil is free will, but so what? This doesn't make your god look anymore inviting than he already is. When you say "free will," it's implied that whoever's allowing you it will respect your choices.

What you are essentially saying: In Nazi Germany, Jews had the choice to stay inside of the country and wait to be sent to concentration camps OR they could have chosen to run away. See?! The Jews had free will! The Nazi government allowed them that free will...under its overruling, permissive, and directing ruling of course!

How is your god not the same thing? Having myriads of choices and being able to choose whichever one you want is nothing to praise when only ONE of those choices saves you from eternal suffering.
Refer to my other thread regarding what free will is. Read the article.

Man's choices have consequences. Man is free to choose but must accept the consequences of his decisions. That includes the eternal consequences.

Man's free will; A real world understanding of it.

 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I think you've probably done enough , and you've entirely missed the points I've raised. At least you've not really addressed them as yet.

My emphasis is not whether God's counsel is stronger than His will (or desire), it's not, but rather to show that these two attributes of God work together. Each works in conjunction with the other. God's will and desire (thelo) emerges and rises out of the planning and purposes of His counsel (boulomai).

The counsel and will of God are not two competing entities that are fighting against one another, as you would seem to have us believe. But rather they illustrate that what God plans and purposes, He actively causes to work according to the counsel of His will:

Eph 1:11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

What God wills and desires, such as the salvation of all men so clearly stated in 1 Tim 2:4, emerges out of His purposed counsel. And that proposed counsel of God, in the end, will have achieved God's will and all of He's desires.
God has an overruling will, a directive will, and a permissive will. God allows man to choose against Him. And therefore, while it is God's desire that all men be saved, all men will NOT be saved. It is God's plan and purpose to save those who obey the gospel by believing in Jesus Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who die without Christ.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:07 PM
 
37,545 posts, read 25,255,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God has an overruling will, a directive will, and a permissive will. God allows man to choose against Him. And therefore, while it is God's desire that all men be saved, all men will NOT be saved. It is God's plan and purpose to save those who obey the gospel by believing in Jesus Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who die without Christ.
Absolutely absurd . . . there is no other word for it. We are not more powerful or determined than God, period.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:22 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God has an overruling will, a directive will, and a permissive will. God allows man to choose against Him. And therefore, while it is God's desire that all men be saved, all men will NOT be saved. It is God's plan and purpose to save those who obey the gospel by believing in Jesus Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who die without Christ.
The will of God in 1 Tim 2:4 is not used as a "directive" or as a "permissive" will that is contingent on anything outside of God Himself. θελει is being used here in the active voice (ie: God is doing the willing, not man), and the indicative mood (ie: it will be accomplished).

This is what you fail to grasp. I realize that this does not sit well with your Arminian theology, but it is what it is.

All will be saved. And it's God's own will that will make it so.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The will of God in 1 Tim 2:4 is not used as a "directive" or as a "permissive" will that is contingent on anything outside of God Himself. θελει is being used here in the active voice (ie: God is doing the willing, not man), and the indicative mood (ie: it will be accomplished).

This is what you fail to grasp. I realize that this does not sit well with your Arminian theology, but it is what it is.

All will be saved. And it's God's own will that will make it so.
No, all will not be saved. (And I am not going to keep going back and forth on this. You can do your arguing about that with someone else).

1 Tim 2:4 expresses God's desire that all men be saved. God permit's man to reject Christ as Savior and remain under condemnation. Man's free will is possible because of God's permissive will.

God prohibits murder. Men still murder. God permits men to commit murder and they must then face the consequences of their decision to to so. There's God's permissive will and mans free will.

And once again, I am not an Arminian. Arminians believe that you can lose your salvation.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Something humorous just occurred to me. And that is that "Free Will vs. God's sovereignty" is one of the few BANNED topics on the Tentmaker forum. People had one too many knock down, drag out fights over it, I reckon.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:35 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, all will not be saved. (And I am not going to keep going back and forth on this. You can do your arguing about that with someone else).

1 Tim 2:4 expresses God's desire that all men be saved. God permit's man to reject Christ as Savior and remain under condemnation. Man's free will is possible because of God's permissive will.

God prohibits murder. Men still murder. God permits men to commit murder and they must then face the consequences of their decision to to so. There's God's permissive will and mans free will.

And once again, I am not an Arminian. Arminians believe that you can lose your salvation.
Permitting or allowing something to happen is not the same as willing it to be done. Ok? This concept of God having a "permissive will" is really not scriptural. Many things take place that are against God's commandments. This no one disputes. But that is not the same thing as resisting His will.

Ask yourself this: Did Pharaoh have the power to resist God hardening his heart? NO! God hardens whom He wills (thelo) and also has mercy on whom He wills (thelo).

Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.

BTW: I'm not saying you believe everything concerning Arminianism, but that your theology concering the free-will of man and the doctrine of regeneration fall into that camp.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Permitting or allowing something to happen is not the same as willing it to be done. Ok? This concept of God having a "permissive will" is really not scriptural. Many things take place that are against God's commandments. This no one disputes. But that is not the same thing as resisting His will.
You're not correctly understanding the matter. God's permissive will doesn't mean that God 'Wills' man to disobey Him. It means that man is ALLOWED to disobey God. God's permissive will ALLOWS man to exercise his free will contrary to God's desires. And it is completely scriptural. God does not desire that men commit murder. Yet men do commit murder. God permits this to happen despite His desire that it not happen.



Quote:
Ask yourself this: Did Pharaoh have the power to resist God hardening his heart? NO! God hardens whom He wills (thelo) and also has mercy on whom He wills (thelo).

Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
In all cases, God only hardens the heart of those who have negative volition against God. Pharaoh was not a godly man. He had never been disposed to freeing the Israelites and God knew that Pharoah would not obey His commands to free them. God was working with Pharaoh’s own human volition. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. Pharaoh was never gong to have a change of heart and release the Jews of his own volition, so his heart would be hardened by God. God gave Pharaoh over to his own negative volition and he became locked into his negative volition and unable to change.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:37 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,314,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You're not correctly understanding the matter. God's permissive will doesn't mean that God 'Wills' man to disobey Him. It means that man is ALLOWED to disobey God. God's permissive will ALLOWS man to exercise his free will contrary to God's desires. And it is completely scriptural. God does not desire that men commit murder. Yet men do commit murder. God permits this to happen despite His desire that it not happen.
Yes, sinners do exercise their will in accordance with their nature. But this will is not "free" in the sense that it can will things outside of it's spiritual condition. This is why the unregenerate freely reject Christ in their unbelief. This is another proof that one must first be born of Spirit before coming to faith and seeing the Kingdom of Christ. By nature, the natural man cannot have faith on Jesus or spiritually hear the Gospel or see the Kingdom. It's not possible without the Spirit first regenerating them to life (Joh 3:3).

And, the fact that sinners exercise their will according to their nature does not imply that they are "free" to exercise that will outside of their nature. The natural man's will is no more able to cross over to spiritual things than a Zebra is able to change it's stripes, or you and I change the color of our skin. The will of the unregenerate is ruled and controlled by it's nature which is spiritual death until regenerated by God.

And BTW, regeneration that enables hearing the Gospel is not "common grace" that can be resisted or rejected. When the sinner is regenerated, he comes freely to Christ in faith and with much assurance out of a new nature born of God.

Quote:
In all cases, God only hardens the heart of those who have negative volition against God. Pharaoh was not a godly man. He had never been disposed to freeing the Israelites and God knew that Pharoah would not obey His commands to free them. God was working with Pharaoh’s own human volition. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. Pharaoh was never gong to have a change of heart and release the Jews of his own volition, so his heart would be hardened by God. God gave Pharaoh over to his own negative volition and he became locked into his negative volition and unable to change.
The reason Pharaoh would not release the Jews (by change of heart) was that God sealed it shut by his will (thelo). And God by His will (thelo) hardened the man's heart to accomplish His desire. Namely that God's name would be declared in all the earth.

Exo 9:16 `And yet for this I have caused thee to stand, so as to show thee My power, and for the sake of declaring My Name in all the earth;

There would be no reason for God to harden Pharaoh's heart unless God knew that Pharaoh's will would let the Israelites go without intervention. God clearly took Pharaoh's heart into His own hands and used it as He saw fit to glorify His name in all the earth.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 04:46 PM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,658,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes, sinners do exercise their will in accordance with their nature. But this will is not "free" in the sense that it can will things outside of it's spiritual condition. This is why the unregenerate freely reject Christ in their unbelief. This is another proof that one must first be born of Spirit before coming to faith and seeing the Kingdom of Christ. By nature, the natural man cannot have faith on Jesus or spiritually hear the Gospel or see the Kingdom. It's not possible without the Spirit first regenerating them to life (Joh 3:3).

And, the fact that sinners exercise their will according to their nature does not imply that they are "free" to exercise that will outside of their nature. The natural man's will is no more able to cross over to spiritual things than a Zebra is able to change it's stripes, or you and I change the color of our skin. The will of the unregenerate is ruled and controlled by it's nature which is spiritual death until regenerated by God.

And BTW, regeneration that enables hearing the Gospel is not "common grace" that can be resisted or rejected. When the sinner is regenerated, he comes freely to Christ in faith and with much assurance out of a new nature born of God.
Just go to my other thread. You have absolutely no understanding of what regeneration is, and you have no idea what Calvin himself said concerning common grace.

Man's free will; A real world understanding of it. Read post #48.




Quote:


The reason Pharaoh would not release the Jews (by change of heart) was that God sealed it shut by his will (thelo). And God by His will (thelo) hardened the man's heart to accomplish His desire. Namely that God's name would be declared in all the earth.

Exo 9:16 `And yet for this I have caused thee to stand, so as to show thee My power, and for the sake of declaring My Name in all the earth;

There would be no reason for God to harden Pharaoh's heart unless God knew that Pharaoh's will would let the Israelites go without intervention. God clearly took Pharaoh's heart into His own hands and used it as He saw fit to glorify His name in all the earth.
You do not understand the issue. God gave Pharaoh over to his own volition. If Pharaoh been willing to release the Jews, God would not have brought the plagues on Egypt. But God, knowing Pharaoh's negative volition, worked with that negative volition and brought judgment on Egypt.

In other words, God knew that the more He commanded Pharaoh to release the Hebrews, the more Pharaoh would resist. Pharaoh hardened his own heart in rebellion against the commands of the Lord. I Samuel 6:6 shows that Pharoah hardened his own heart. ''Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharoh hardened their hearts? When He (God) had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?

Excerpt from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible;

And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh,.... He having often, and so long hardened his own heart, God gave him up to judicial hardness of heart, to his own corruptions, the temptations of Satan, and the lying magicians about him, to make an ill use of everything that offered to him, and put a wrong construction on all that befell him, so that whatever was said to him, or inflicted on him, made no impression to any purpose:
Exodus 9:12 Bible Commentary

Excerpt from Wesley's Notes;

9:12 Now the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart - Before he had hardened his own heart, and resisted the grace of God, and now God justly gave him up to his own heart's lusts, to strong delusions, permitting Satan to blind and harden him. Wilful hardness is commonly punished with judicial hardness. Let us dread this as the sorest judgment a man can be under on this side hell.
Exodus 9:12 Bible Commentary

Do you understand? God did not harden Pharaoh's heart against Pharaoh's will. God gave Pharaoh over to his own corruption.

I suggest people read this link, completely and carefully.
Apologetics Press - Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?

Now you might say, but what about Romans 9:17-18. ''For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.'' 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

The Calvinist will say, ''See? God hardens who He wants to harden.'' That is not the meaning. God knew from eternity past that Pharaoh would be in rebellion against God, but selected him to be born anyway. Knowing that Pharaoh would resist God's commands, God allowed Pharaoh to resist Him and as a result, the more Pharaoh said 'no' to God, the more he hardened his own heart.

And that is exactly what happens when people reject the truth. The more they do so, the more they become hardened against the truth.
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