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Old 08-01-2011, 10:17 PM
 
484 posts, read 334,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How do you reconcile faith being the work of God and then require a profession of it by us? Either it is of God or it is of us . . . it cannot be both. The simple reality is that true belief has nothing to do with our choices. If we have to choose between alternatives . . . then we do not truly believe any of them. We cannot choose to believe. We can only choose to intellectually accept what we do not believe and I can see no value to God in that.
It is definitely of God. I'm merely saying that there is a profession of faith that is seen in us. Somehow, it has to be made evident that God has done this work in us, because we are the ones who carry out the "great commission" and share the Gospel with our fellow man.

It can't be much different from the fact that you are declaring what you believe to be true about Christ and the Gospel. God has done the work, and now you are serving as an ambassador to bring the message to the world.
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Old 08-02-2011, 12:18 PM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
mike:



Yes it is error.
Listen. Don't just dismiss out of hand what I am saying. Listen to what I am saying. God gives man the ability to have faith, the ability to believe, but man must exercise the faith. Man must do the believing. Man must supply the faith. The faith response to the gospel originates with the one hearing the gospel. Faith is confidence or trust in the one toward whom it is directed. God provides the information in the gospel message about Christ. In response to that information, a person will either have faith in Christ, or he will reject the gospel message.

Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.''

Jesus told the woman that her faith in Him as the author of eternal salvation resulted in her eternal salvation. She had to exercise the non-meritorius faith toward Him.

Again, God desires that ALL men be saved (2 Tim 2:3-4).

BUT all men are NOT saved. Since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that faith in Christ is the means by which man appropriates eternal salvation, and that God desires that all men be saved, and yet, all men are NOT saved, then, if saving faith came from God, He would be responsible for not giving those who are not saved, the faith neccessary to BE saved. Therefore, to say that saving faith comes from God is to imply that despite the fact that God desires that all men be saved, He nevertheless does not provide the neccessary faith to some people so that they can be saved. Can you not see the problem with this?

God gave man the ability to believe, to have faith. But man must in every case do the believing. Man must in every case supply the faith - the trust - the confidence in Christ in response to what He has learned about Christ from the gospel message.

Saving Faith preceeds regeneration.

Acts 16:30 'and after he brought them out, he said, ''Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'' 31] And they said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved...''

Eph 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith...'

I've gone over this enough. It has been made as clear as I know how to make it. The fact is that some people will never understand, or will not even want to understand the issue. But I am now done with this thread.

I refer readers back to posts #1, 32, 69, and 83.
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:52 PM
 
672 posts, read 537,631 times
Reputation: 38
mike:

Quote:
Listen. Don't just dismiss out of hand what I am saying.
Its error, grave error !
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:12 PM
 
672 posts, read 537,631 times
Reputation: 38
Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Does Faith cause the elect to become the children of God ? Yes and no..For it causes us to become the children of God uswardly, as that it shows us our sonship that we had before we were born or born again..But Faith is not causative in our being Sons or Children of God..

The causative reason for being Children of God is Election in Jesus Christ and Predestination before the world began.

Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him [His Son] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Simple, Those God chose in His Son, He did so with the intent and purpose to conform them unto the image of His Son..

Eph 1:5

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This adoption or sonship is manifested by our new birth in time as well as it will be more fully manifested at the second coming of Jesus Christ, for all the world to see and behold..1 Jn 3:1-2

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

By being given to Jesus Christ we became sons or children of God and His brethren..

Jn 17:6

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Isa 8:18

18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Heb 2:13

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Note: Only Gods children will made to Trust in Him, for they shall know His name..Ps 9:10

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

The elect were actually given to Christ before He died..Heb 2:10

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings

That is, They were the many Sons, before He was made perfect through suffering, which refers to His death and all that led to it..

For He that is sanctified [ Jesus Christ] and they who are sanctified [ the children] are of one..that is One seed..Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

But believers are the seed too because of their Oneness with Jesus Christ the Seed..Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And Faith makes that known, who was in Christ The Seed Gal 3:26

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So its not by our believing or by our Faith that causes us to be Sons or Children of God, for that was the case of us before our believing.

The Elect were by Eternal Election and Predestination Sons before they believed. It was because of being Sons already that God sent His Spirit to us in order to make us new and give us Faith Gal 4:6

6And because ye are sons, [by election] God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

For we could not believe without the work and fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

For Faith is the result of the operation of God the Spirit Col 2:12

12B uried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. cp with

Eph 1:19-20

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

So in the sense of God Revealing our Sonship to us, yes its by Faith we become the Children of God, but that Faith is not causative of becoming children of God, Gods Election and Predestination was, and that before the world began..
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:57 PM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Does Faith cause the elect to become the children of God ? Yes and no..For it causes us to become the children of God uswardly, as that it shows us our sonship that we had before we were born or born again..But Faith is not causative in our being Sons or Children of God..

The causative reason for being Children of God is Election in Jesus Christ and Predestination before the world began.

Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him [His Son] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Simple, Those God chose in His Son, He did so with the intent and purpose to conform them unto the image of His Son..

Eph 1:5

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This adoption or sonship is manifested by our new birth in time as well as it will be more fully manifested at the second coming of Jesus Christ, for all the world to see and behold..1 Jn 3:1-2

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

By being given to Jesus Christ we became sons or children of God and His brethren..

Jn 17:6

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Isa 8:18

18Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Heb 2:13

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Note: Only Gods children will made to Trust in Him, for they shall know His name..Ps 9:10

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

The elect were actually given to Christ before He died..Heb 2:10

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings

That is, They were the many Sons, before He was made perfect through suffering, which refers to His death and all that led to it..

For He that is sanctified [ Jesus Christ] and they who are sanctified [ the children] are of one..that is One seed..Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

But believers are the seed too because of their Oneness with Jesus Christ the Seed..Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And Faith makes that known, who was in Christ The Seed Gal 3:26

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So its not by our believing or by our Faith that causes us to be Sons or Children of God, for that was the case of us before our believing.

The Elect were by Eternal Election and Predestination Sons before they believed. It was because of being Sons already that God sent His Spirit to us in order to make us new and give us Faith Gal 4:6

6And because ye are sons, [by election] God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

For we could not believe without the work and fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

For Faith is the result of the operation of God the Spirit Col 2:12

12B uried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. cp with

Eph 1:19-20

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

So in the sense of God Revealing our Sonship to us, yes its by Faith we become the Children of God, but that Faith is not causative of becoming children of God, Gods Election and Predestination was, and that before the world began..
By bringing in election and predestination, you are now going into a subject that is not the topic of this thread. Election and predestination are based on God's foreknowledge of who He knew would believe in Christ for salvation.

Election and predestination which are different sides of the same coin, merely mean that God wills His highest and best for those who believe. No one is predestined to believe. Rather, those who God knew would believe in Christ were predestined to certain things. And no one is predestined to hell. Those who go to hell go there because they refuse to accept God's offer of salvation.

Again, this is not the topic of this thread. And as I have said, since I have already made the topic of this thread as clear as I can, I am done with it. There is no point in going over again that which has already been covered.
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:07 AM
 
672 posts, read 537,631 times
Reputation: 38
Faith is an allotment to a chosen People

2 Pet 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Notice, peter specifies to them that have obtained like precious Faith ! This should be a signal to any hones heart that Faith is not given to or for everyone, and that its from a source outside of ourselves, for its precious, and comes from a precious source..

Notice that peter says it's obtained !!

This is important, and lets look at this word obtain. It is the greek word:

Arrangement Nounlagchanō= which means:

to obtain by lot

a) to receive by divine allotment, obtain

2) to cast lots, determine by lot

Notice, to receive by Divine Allotment..So what is a Allotment ?

Websters says this :

A share set aside for a specific purpose.

and its synonyms:

Arrangement

Noun: arrangement; plan; preparation; disposal, disposition

So Faith is obtained by arrangement, Plan, or disposal

You remember what proverbs says about casting Lots and there disposal ?


Prov 16:33


The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.


John Gill says of this verse:


" but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the Lord;

or "the judgment" of it; the judgment that is to be made by it concerning persons or things; it being so directed and ordered by him as to fall upon the person it should; or to make known the thing in doubt and debate according to his will, in which all parties concerned should acquiesce. This is to be ascribed, not to blind chance and fortune, to the influence of the stars, or to any invisible created being, angel or devil, but to the Lord only; there is no such thing as chance, or events by chance; those events which seem most fortuitous or contingent are all disposed, ordered, and governed, by the sovereign will of God. "


One receives faith by the Sovereign will of God according to His plan and purpose for them


This reminds me of the High Priest..He is said to obtain His office Heb 8:6

But now hath he [Jesus Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises

This is regarding His Priesthood, and if we are familiar with the OT Priest hood, of which His was so much better, nevertheless we find that the priesthood was not for everyone, but it was alloted to the tribe of levi


Only those from that tribe could obtain[receive] to the priesthood of God.

It was alloted to that tribe in the Sovereign arrangement of things.

and so it is with Faith, its alloted to the heirs of salvation Heb 1:14

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


This Faith is Precious because it communicates Divine realities in the unseen Spiritual Heavenly world where Gods Throne rules, realties otherwise by nature we could never have or believe in.
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:29 PM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
Faith is an allotment to a chosen People

2 Pet 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Notice, peter specifies to them that have obtained like precious Faith ! This should be a signal to any hones heart that Faith is not given to or for everyone, and that its from a source outside of ourselves, for its precious, and comes from a precious source..

Notice that peter says it's obtained !!

This is important, and lets look at this word obtain. It is the greek word:

Arrangement Nounlagchanō= which means:

to obtain by lot

a) to receive by divine allotment, obtain

2) to cast lots, determine by lot

Notice, to receive by Divine Allotment..So what is a Allotment ?

Websters says this :

A share set aside for a specific purpose.

and its synonyms:

Arrangement

Noun: arrangement; plan; preparation; disposal, disposition

So Faith is obtained by arrangement, Plan, or disposal

You remember what proverbs says about casting Lots and there disposal ?


Prov 16:33


The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.


John Gill says of this verse:


" but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the Lord;

or "the judgment" of it; the judgment that is to be made by it concerning persons or things; it being so directed and ordered by him as to fall upon the person it should; or to make known the thing in doubt and debate according to his will, in which all parties concerned should acquiesce. This is to be ascribed, not to blind chance and fortune, to the influence of the stars, or to any invisible created being, angel or devil, but to the Lord only; there is no such thing as chance, or events by chance; those events which seem most fortuitous or contingent are all disposed, ordered, and governed, by the sovereign will of God. "


One receives faith by the Sovereign will of God according to His plan and purpose for them


This reminds me of the High Priest..He is said to obtain His office Heb 8:6

But now hath he [Jesus Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises

This is regarding His Priesthood, and if we are familiar with the OT Priest hood, of which His was so much better, nevertheless we find that the priesthood was not for everyone, but it was alloted to the tribe of levi


Only those from that tribe could obtain[receive] to the priesthood of God.

It was alloted to that tribe in the Sovereign arrangement of things.

and so it is with Faith, its alloted to the heirs of salvation Heb 1:14

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


This Faith is Precious because it communicates Divine realities in the unseen Spiritual Heavenly world where Gods Throne rules, realties otherwise by nature we could never have or believe in.
Simply refer back to post #32. Everyone has the ability to exercise faith. God gave that ability just as He gave you the ability to think. But it is your resonsibility to do the thinking, and it is your responsibility to exercise faith in response to the gospel message. God does not do the believing for you. The faith response to the gospel is the responsibility of the one hearing the gospel.

God holds you responsible for your faith or lack of it.

Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.'

Mark 11:22 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Everyone has the ability to have faith. Exercising that faith is up to the individual. In the case of the unbeliever, faith in Christ as a result of hearing and believing the gospel message about Christ. In the case of the believer, faith as a part of the Christian life which increases as a result of spiritual growth, or weakens as a result of neglect of Bible doctrine.

Refer to the following site regarding faith ---> Where Does Faith Come From? Faith of the Son of God or Your Faith?
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Old 08-19-2011, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
581 posts, read 633,545 times
Reputation: 149
And does not the Gospel have the power of God for the hearer to hear and understand? Yes! Not the power of man or even a decision from man.
Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
John 1
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Romans 9
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Keep it simple.

God Bless,
Mercy
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Old 08-19-2011, 04:55 PM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
And does not the Gospel have the power of God for the hearer to hear and understand? Yes! Not the power of man or even a decision from man.
Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
John 1
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Romans 9
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Keep it simple.

God Bless,
Mercy
Hebrews 12:2 does not say that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. It says that Jesus is the author of faith. The reference here is not to our personal saving faith. It is a reference to the gospel. Jesus is the author of the gospel. I covered this in the original post.

The gospel is the means by which enough knowledge of the facts pertaining to salvation can be understood by the hearer of the gospel by means of the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit, so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ for the purpose of eternal salvation. If the hearer of the gospel is persuaded by the gospel, and wants a personal relationship with Jesus, then the Holy Spirit in His ministry of efficacous grace, takes that persons faith and carries it to the point of salvation. The Holy Spirit makes that faith effective for salvation.
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,409,656 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
It is definitely of God. I'm merely saying that there is a profession of faith that is seen in us. Somehow, it has to be made evident that God has done this work in us, because we are the ones who carry out the "great commission" and share the Gospel with our fellow man.

It can't be much different from the fact that you are declaring what you believe to be true about Christ and the Gospel. God has done the work, and now you are serving as an ambassador to bring the message to the world.
Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Matthew is full of Jesus telling them not to do things for men to see.... Yet you think people must confess?
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