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Old 01-23-2011, 08:47 PM
 
20,540 posts, read 15,879,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
This is simply not scriptural. It appears to be a manmade doctrine to make people who believe God will torture people feel better about God.
God has revealed Himself through His creation so that all are without excuse. Roman's 1:18-23.

Romans 1:18 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19] because that which is known about God is evident within them. 20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened. 22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23] And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

1 Corinthians 1:18 'For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing follishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God, 19] For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.'' 20' Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

2 Corinthians 4:3 'And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4] in whose case the god of this world had blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:48 PM
 
18,471 posts, read 9,121,919 times
Reputation: 1547
Faith is not based on the mathematical probabilities within the framework of men, rather, it is the absolute assurance within the work of Christ and his faith (-fulness).
[It] is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Obviously, this persuasion of faith in "us" is by and through the works’ of the SPIRIT,
not through the acts of men themselves, having faith in Christ; but in the "Faith of Christ."

These are the fruits or works which come directly from the Spirit, not through observation or that which has the propensity of reasonable doubt:
Love, joy, peace, long suffering (patience), kindness, goodness, faith (-fulness or assurance; pistis), gentleness, and self-control.

Regulate your own works, if you must; but against such things there is no law.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:52 PM
 
37,840 posts, read 25,580,579 times
Reputation: 5885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Faith is not based on the mathematical probabilities within the framework of men, rather, it is the absolute assurance within the work of Christ and his faith (-fulness).
[It] is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Obviously, this persuasion of faith in "us" is by and through the works’ of the SPIRIT,
not through the acts of men themselves, having faith in Christ; but in the "Faith of Christ."

These are the fruits or works which come directly from the Spirit, not through observation or that which has the propensity of reasonable doubt:
Love, joy, peace, long suffering (patience), kindness, goodness, faith (-fulness or assurance; pistis), gentleness, and self-control.

Regulate your own works, if you must; but against such things there is no law.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:58 PM
 
20,540 posts, read 15,879,822 times
Reputation: 7805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Where do you get your definitions of faith? Not from the bible, obviously. Faith is not a system. It it not response as a result of knowledge. The bible says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen." What do you hope for? That is what you have faith in. How do you know God's plan for mankind? You can't know other than by faith - evidence of things not seen.

My faith in the Holy Spirit, whose fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. My faith is in Love (God), 1 Corinthians 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

This is my faith - the substance of things I hope for - the evidence of things I cannot see - the things I believe are truth.
It is completely Scriptural. And faith is indeed a system of perception.

1) Impiricism is a system of perception.

2) Rationalism is a system of perception.

3) Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:58 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,734,185 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Where do you get your definitions of faith? Not from the bible, obviously. Faith is not a system. It it not response as a result of knowledge. The bible says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen." What do you hope for? That is what you have faith in. How do you know God's plan for mankind? You can't know other than by faith - evidence of things not seen.

My faith in the Holy Spirit, whose fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. My faith is in Love (God), 1 Corinthians 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

This is my faith - the substance of things I hope for - the evidence of things I cannot see - the things I believe are truth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Faith is not based on the mathematical probabilities within the framework of men, rather, it is the absolute assurance within the work of Christ and his faith (-fulness).
[It] is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Obviously, this persuasion of faith in "us" is by and through the works’ of the SPIRIT,
not through the acts of men themselves, having faith in Christ; but in the "Faith of Christ."

These are the fruits or works which come directly from the Spirit, not through observation or that which has the propensity of reasonable doubt:
Love, joy, peace, long suffering (patience), kindness, goodness, faith (-fulness or assurance; pistis), gentleness, and self-control.

Regulate your own works, if you must; but against such things there is no law.
Cool! Look how similar our posts are!
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:05 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,734,185 times
Reputation: 263
Originally Posted by Mike555
For this reason, every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. If he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
This is simply not scriptural. It appears to be a manmade doctrine to make people who believe God will torture people feel better about God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God has revealed Himself through His creation so that all are without excuse. Roman's 1:18-23.

Romans 1:18 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19] because that which is known about God is evident within them. 20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened. 22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23] And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

1 Corinthians 1:18 'For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing follishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God, 19] For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.'' 20' Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

2 Corinthians 4:3 'And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4] in whose case the god of this world had blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
I am aware of those verses, but strangely enough, they didn't address the point I made that what you said is not scriptural. None of these verses remotely talk about your theory that you stated in the part of your post that I quoted.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,206,098 times
Reputation: 7711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. Saving faith is not from God, it is a response from you as a result of knowledge gained. God provides information about Christ through the gospel. As a result of that information, the hearer places his trust in Christ for salvation (if he does). Or he rejects the Gospel. This should not be a difficult concept to understand.

Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception. Everyone has faith in something. A child knows that he can trust his parents because he has learned that they are trustworthy.

A husband and wife trust each other because they know each other. Because of what they know about one another, each one knows that they can put their faith in the other.

Your parents didn't give you faith. They showed themselves to be deserving of your faith in them. The same with a husband and wife relationship.

It is no different with faith in Christ. God doesn't give you faith. He reveals Himself in the Gospel message, and if you are persuaded that the gospel message is true from your consideration of the information given to you, then you place your faith in Christ for salvation. It is YOUR faith. It comes from you in response to knowing something about Christ which was revealed through the Gospel. Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of righteousness, and of judgment. But that conviction can be resisted, or ignored and the gospel can be said 'no' to.

Alright, let me rephrase it a little better: The evidence upon which your saving faith is based is a gift from God.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:16 PM
 
20,540 posts, read 15,879,822 times
Reputation: 7805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Faith is not based on the mathematical probabilities within the framework of men, rather, it is the absolute assurance within the work of Christ and his faith (-fulness).
[It] is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Obviously, this persuasion of faith in "us" is by and through the works’ of the SPIRIT,
not through the acts of men themselves, having faith in Christ; but in the "Faith of Christ."

From post #4.

'The gospel hearer must decide if he believes what is being presented to him at gospel hearing. And again, it is God the Holy Spirit who convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11). But the unbeliever can resist that conviction. It is his choice.'

Mathematical probabilities were never mentioned.

And faith is assurance based on having learned something about the one in whom the faith is placed. In the case of salvation, faith comes by hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17 'So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The unbeliever hears the gospel message under the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) and considers the information of the gospel message and either responds positively or reacts negatively.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:20 PM
 
20,540 posts, read 15,879,822 times
Reputation: 7805
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Alright, let me rephrase it a little better: The evidence upon which your saving faith is based is a gift from God.
The gospel provides the evidence on which saving faith is based, and it is indeed from God. This was addressed in the original post.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,734,185 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is completely Scriptural. And faith is indeed a system of perception.

1) Impiricism is a system of perception.

2) Rationalism is a system of perception.

3) Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception.
So you believe in "saving faith," in other words, a "saving system of perception?" Something seems off here. IMO, I don't think God would use something as flimsy as perception to save people. The way I understand the scriptures, God sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world, not a system of perception.
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