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Old 01-23-2011, 09:35 PM
 
20,310 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You mention "saving faith" quite often. So, you believe in a "saving system of perception?" Something just seems off here. The bible says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, so I guess you could say one perceives what they hope for, or perceives what they do not see.

But, do you believe God will let a man's eternal destiny of bliss or being set ablaze hinge on his perception? I'll put my faith in GOD's system of perception not mine, and on HIS saving faith, saving grace, and pure love.
Salvation is not a system. Faith is a form (if you don't like the word system) of perception.

The ways in which we come to an understanding of things are empiricism, rationalism, or faith.

Faith is a non-meritorious 'FORM' 'TYPE' 'KIND' 'MEANS' 'WAY' 'SYSTEM' take your pick, of perception which is based on - in the case of salvation, understanding the gospel message under the common grace ministry (John 16:11-13) of the Holy Spirit. You learn the issue involved in salvation and consider the facts and decide if you believe the gospel message or not.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:52 PM
 
20,310 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Originally Posted by Mike555
For this reason, every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. If he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.



I am aware of those verses, but strangely enough, they didn't address the point I made that what you said is not scriptural. None of these verses remotely talk about your theory that you stated in the part of your post that I quoted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
For this reason, every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. If he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.

The above is what you replyed to with your statement below.

''This is simply not scriptural. It appears to be a manmade doctrine to make people who believe God will torture people feel better about God.''


To which I replied with the following:

Originally Posted by Mike555
God has revealed Himself through His creation so that all are without excuse. Roman's 1:18-23.

Romans 1:18 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19] because that which is known about God is evident within them. 20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened. 22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23] And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

1 Corinthians 1:18 'For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God, 19] For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.'' 20' Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21] For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

2 Corinthians 4:3 'And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4] in whose case the god of this world had blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Those passages address perfectly the issue of God consciousness and man's accountability to God.

I am not going to indulge you with regard to such statements as this one which you made: ''It appears to be a manmade doctrine to make people who believe God will torture people feel better about God.''

Last edited by Mike555; 01-23-2011 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:55 PM
 
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Mike, none of those verses say that every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. Neither do they say that if he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.

P.S. When I wrote the other comment, I was unaware of the updated guidelines about not speaking of certain things.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:22 PM
 
20,310 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Mike, none of those verses say that every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. Neither do they say that if he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.

P.S. When I wrote the other comment, I was unaware of the updated guidelines about not speaking of certain things.
Yes, they do show that man is held accountable by God. That you will not open your eyes to that fact, I can do nothing about.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:35 PM
 
17,785 posts, read 8,896,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is completely Scriptural. And faith is indeed a system of perception.

1) Impiricism is a system of perception.

2) Rationalism is a system of perception.

3) Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception.
An empirical conclusion is derived from the senses; unaided by divine revelation and independent of any experience.
If this is what you are claiming, then it is only your perception that matters.

Please, do not take offense, but there was a saying in college which was based on perception that went like this:

"Hears to you, hears to me, if we shall every disagree; the hell with you, hears to me."

Perception alone never leads to the truth.

Last edited by Jerwade; 01-23-2011 at 10:55 PM..
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:56 PM
 
20,310 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
An empirical conclusion is derived from the senses; unaided by divine revelation and independent of any experience.
If this is what you are claiming, then it is only your perception that matters.

Please, do not take offense, but there was a saying in college which was based on perception that went like this:

"Hears to you, hears to me, if we shall every disagree; the hell with you, hears to me."

Perception never leads to the truth.
You said, ''Perception never leads to the truth.''

To the contrary. Perception of Bible doctrine orients the believer to God's revealed absolute truth.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:31 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,722,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes, they do show that man is held accountable by God. That you will not open your eyes to that fact, I can do nothing about.
I know man is held accountable by God. I believe the verses that teach us you reap what you sow. I was mainly referring to your point:

"If he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ."

The scriptures you posted do not mention that at all.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:31 PM
 
17,785 posts, read 8,896,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You said, ''Perception never leads to the truth.''

To the contrary. Perception of Bible doctrine orients the believer to God's revealed absolute truth.
I understand, but that is predicated on your perception of what truth is,
within the realm of your own comprehension without the Spirit of truth.

"The faith of men without the Spirit, justifies no one."
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:00 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,204,102 times
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One cannot hear or see or understand the words of God if God does not give them the ability to ...


Deu 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.


It is God who gives a person ears to hear and eyes to see and the ability to understand the gospel, and this is by the spirit. And only people who are of God(regenerated by the spirit) can hear and see and understand his word.

If a person does not hear or see or understand and repent and believe, then it is because God has not given them the ability to.

Don't let the word games and mental gymnastics of those who subscribe to the traditions of men deceive you.


Faith is a gift, and a fruit of the spirit ... (Rom 12:3, 1Cor 13:2, Eph 2:8, Galations 5:22-23, Hbr 12:2)

Hearing is a gift ... (Deu 29:4, Rom 11:8)

Seeing is a gift ... (Deu 29:4, Rom 11:8)

Understanding is a gift ... (Deu 29:4, Luk 8:10, Rom 11:8)

Repentance is a gift ... (Act 5:31, 2Ti 2:25)


It is all a gift of God, everything we do that pleases God, including repenting and having faith, it is all because of the work of God within your life, we are his workmanship ... (Eph 2:10)



Peace ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-24-2011 at 12:14 AM..
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,573,971 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
One cannot hear or see or understand the words of God if God does not give them the ability to ...


Deu 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.


It is God who gives a person ears to hear and eyes to see and the ability to understand the gospel, and this is by the spirit. And only people who are of God(regenerated by the spirit) can hear and see and understand his word.

If a person does not hear or see or understand and repent and believe, then it is because God has not given them the ability to.

Don't let the word games and mental gymnastics of those who subscribe to the traditions of men deceive you.


Faith is a gift, and a fruit of the spirit ... (Rom 12:3, 1Cor 13:2, Eph 2:8, Galations 5:22-23, Hbr 12:2)

Hearing is a gift ... (Deu 29:4, Rom 11:8)

Seeing is a gift ... (Deu 29:4, Rom 11:8)

Understanding is a gift ... (Deu 29:4, Luk 8:10, Rom 11:8)

Repentance is a gift ... (Act 5:31, 2Ti 2:25)


It is all a gift of God, everything we do that pleases God, including repenting and having faith, it is all because of the work of God within your life, we are his workmanship ... (Eph 2:10)



Peace ...
That no one may boast in His presence other than boasting about the marvelous riches of God's grace. I'm glad God made it to be that way.
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