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Old 01-24-2011, 01:21 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,140,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I would ask you to go back and read with comprehension what I wrote rather than reacting emotionally to what I wrote.
Mike,
I was reflecting on this thread last night before sleeping. A few thoughts came to mind I hope you will ponder:

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Heb. 4.2 It is God who does the "mixing," not the hearers.

When you preach to most Jews today, they simply cannot hear you. Why? Because it is GOD who has blinded them! You cannot go against God, my friend.

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." Eph. 4.17-19


"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." Rom. 11.7-8


It is GOD who makes us see, and it is GOD who makes us blind.


Why can't fundamentalists see that? Because it takes away their pride.


The Truth is, we have NOTHING to boast about, especially our salvation.


"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." Rom. 3.27


I pray you can hear this, Mike.



Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:39 AM
 
20,445 posts, read 15,808,231 times
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How many times do I have to say it? At the point of Gospel hearing, God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common Grace makes the gospel message understandable to the hearer. He convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief and of righteousness, and of judgment. It is because of this that the hearer can respond to the gospel if he so chooses.

And most likely, the same people who keep claiming that I say that God doesn't have anything to do with it, the same people who make the claim that I say that the Holy Spirit isn't necessary in understanding the word of God will just keep repeating the same fool thing over and over again.

Now about faith. God gave man mentality. He gave man volition. It is with these that a man can exercise faith in Christ based on information understood from the gospel. But the faith comes from him. To be more clear, the EXERCISE of the faith comes from him. It does not come from God. God does NOT make you believe. He does NOT force you to have faith in Christ. God gave you the tools with which you can choose to believe or with which you can choose not to believe in Christ.


Let's try it this way, because you are obviously not understanding what I am saying. As I already said, God gave man mentality and volition. He gave man the ability to relate to the world though the systems of rationalism, empiricism, and faith. I have already mentioned those systems of perception in an earlier post on this thread. Now, people use these systems of perception to various degrees. Regarding faith, everyone has faith in something but does not have faith in other things. You have faith in some person, or in some thing. The reason you express that faith toward that person or toward that thing, is because you know something about that person or thing and therefore you know that you can trust and have confidence in that person or thing.

Now, with regard to the gospel, you learn something about Christ through the gospel message, and upon considering the information contained in the gospel message, you must decide whether you believe it or not. If you don't believe it then you reject it. If you do believe it then you exercise faith in Christ.

Luke 7:50 'And he said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.''

On the other hand, Jesus said to the deciples in Luke 17:6 ''IF you had faith like a mustard seed...''

The responsibility to believe is yours. The responsibilty to have faith in Christ is yours. You must choose to exercise non-meritorious faith in Christ or not to. The responsibility to consider the facts and make a faith decision is yours. God provides the gospel information and it is YOUR responsibility to make the right choice.

I'll try it one more way. The ability to have faith comes from God. The decision to actually have faith in Jesus Christ, or in anyone or anything else comes from you. Faith is a volitional response from you which is directed toward the object of faith.

Now do you understand the issue regarding faith? Yes? No? Maybe? Because I've about run out of ways to explain it.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-24-2011 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,140,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
How many times do I have to say it? At the point of Gospel hearing, God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common Grace makes the gospel message understandable to the hearer. He convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief and of righteousness, and of judgment. It is because of this that the hearer can respond to the gospel if he so chooses.

The Holy Spirit does not "convict," but "convince." Check carefully! It's not splitting hairs, either... Big difference! Man does not need to be convicted. Adam did that already. It is Christ who justifies.

And most likely, the same people who keep claiming that I say that God doesn't have anything to do with it, the same people who make the claim that I say that the Holy Spirit isn't necessary in understanding the word of God will just keep repeating the same fool thing over and over again.

No, the Spirit is of course important, we both know that..

Now about faith. God gave man mentality. He gave man volition. It is with these that a man can exercise faith in Christ based on information understood from the gospel. But the faith comes from him. To be more clear, the EXERCISE of the faith comes from him. It does not come from God. God does NOT make you believe. He does NOT force you to have faith in Christ. God gave you the tools with which you can choose to believe or with which you can choose not to believe in Christ.

Mike, God does indeed force us. He overcomes our unbelief. See Saul experience, near Damascus. When man is confronted by God, then he learns righteousness.

Let's try it this way, because you are obviously not understanding what I am saying. As I already said, God gave man mentality and volition. He gave man the ability to relate to the world though the systems of rationalism, empiricism, and faith. I have already mentioned those systems of perception in an earlier post on this thread. Now, people use these systems of perception to various degrees. Regarding faith, everyone has faith in something but does not have faith in other things. You have faith in some person, or in some thing. The reason you express that faith toward that person or toward that thing, is because you know something about that person or thing and therefore you know that you can trust and have confidence in that person or thing.

Now, with regard to the gospel, you learn something about Christ through the gospel message, and upon considering the information contained in the gospel message, you must decide whether you believe it or not. If you don't believe it then you reject it. If you do believe it then you exercise faith in Christ.

Luke 7:50 'And he said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.''

On the other hand, Jesus said to the deciples in Luke 17:6 ''IF you had faith like a mustard seed...''

The responsibility to believe is yours. The responsibilty to have faith in Christ is yours. You must choose to exercise non-meritorious faith in Christ or not to. The responsibility to consider the facts and make a faith decision is yours. God provides the gospel information and it is YOUR responsibility to make the right choice.

I'll try it one more way. The ability to have faith comes from God. The decision to actually have faith in Jesus Christ, or in anyone or anything else comes from you. Faith is a volitional response from you which is directed toward the object of faith.

Now do you understand the issue regarding faith? Yes? No? Maybe? Because I've about run out of ways to explain it.
To be continued... gotta run!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:10 AM
 
20,445 posts, read 15,808,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
To be continued... gotta run!

Blessings,
brian
That post is directed at everyone.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:16 AM
 
351 posts, read 284,738 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
How many times do I have to say it? At the point of Gospel hearing, God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common Grace makes the gospel message understandable to the hearer. He convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief and of righteousness, and of judgment. It is because of this that the hearer can respond to the gospel if he so chooses.

And most likely, the same people who keep claiming that I say that God doesn't have anything to do with it, the same people who make the claim that I say that the Holy Spirit isn't necessary in understanding the word of God will just keep repeating the same fool thing over and over again.

Now about faith. God gave man mentality. He gave man volition. It is with these that a man can exercise faith in Christ based on information understood from the gospel. But the faith comes from him. To be more clear, the EXERCISE of the faith comes from him. It does not come from God. God does NOT make you believe. He does NOT force you to have faith in Christ. God gave you the tools with which you can choose to believe or with which you can choose not to believe in Christ.


Let's try it this way, because you are obviously not understanding what I am saying. As I already said, God gave man mentality and volition. He gave man the ability to relate to the world though the systems of rationalism, empiricism, and faith. I have already mentioned those systems of perception in an earlier post on this thread. Now, people use these systems of perception to various degrees. Regarding faith, everyone has faith in something but does not have faith in other things. You have faith in some person, or in some thing. The reason you express that faith toward that person or toward that thing, is because you know something about that person or thing and therefore you know that you can trust and have confidence in that person or thing.

Now, with regard to the gospel, you learn something about Christ through the gospel message, and upon considering the information contained in the gospel message, you must decide whether you believe it or not. If you don't believe it then you reject it. If you do believe it then you exercise faith in Christ.

Luke 7:50 'And he said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.''

On the other hand, Jesus said to the deciples in Luke 17:6 ''IF you had faith like a mustard seed...''

The responsibility to believe is yours. The responsibilty to have faith in Christ is yours. You must choose to exercise non-meritorious faith in Christ or not to. The responsibility to consider the facts and make a faith decision is yours. God provides the gospel information and it is YOUR responsibility to make the right choice.

I'll try it one more way. The ability to have faith comes from God. The decision to actually have faith in Jesus Christ, or in anyone or anything else comes from you. Faith is a volitional response from you which is directed toward the object of faith.

Now do you understand the issue regarding faith? Yes? No? Maybe? Because I've about run out of ways to explain it.
Hi Mike You opened an interesting thread here.

I do disagree with your point that at the point of hearing the gospel God's Holy Spirit make the gospel understandable and we can accept or reject it. I know from personal experiance, because I heard the gospel many times when I was younger and had no idea what everything meant. All I knew then was what people told me and they told me differant things and I had no idea who was right or wrong.

It was not until I was much older and started studying and praying that my eyes were opened a little. The more I studied and prayed the more I understood. I relized that God was opening my eyes to his truth but it was not all at once and I still have a long way to go.

I believe that Faith comes from God and it is his faith, All salvation is of God, 100% If we are responsible for our own faith some of the responsability for salvation would be ours. I once had a pastor tell me it was 95% God and 5% us. I don't believe it. It is 100% God.

As for the woman's faith saving her of course it did but it still was a gift from God as is everything we have and are. Our very lives are a gift from God. As are all our blessing and all our tributaions. All are a gift from God to transform us into his image.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:28 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,730,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
- It is because of this that the hearer can respond to the gospel if he so chooses.

- God gave you the tools with which you can choose to believe or with which you can choose not to believe in Christ.

- If you don't believe it then you reject it. If you do believe it then you exercise faith in Christ.

- The responsibility to believe is yours. The responsibilty to have faith in Christ is yours. You must choose to exercise non-meritorious faith in Christ or not to. The responsibility to consider the facts and make a faith decision is yours. God provides the gospel information and it is YOUR responsibility to make the right choice.

- The ability to have faith comes from God. The decision to actually have faith in Jesus Christ, or in anyone or anything else comes from you. Faith is a volitional response from you which is directed toward the object of faith.
Regarding the comments above, what would you say to an atheist who says they have tried desperating to believe, but can't? I have seen posts from two or three unbelievers on this forum who have said that. I never thought of it that way until I read their comments.

As an analogy, let's say someone told you that you had to believe in aliens from outer space or you would die. Maybe you would want desperately to believe it just because you thought there was a chance they were right. Maybe you were afraid of not believing it and didn't want to die. Now, let's say in your mind and your heart you really did not believe in aliens from outer space, but you tried and tried to start believing it just so you wouldn't die, but no matter how hard you tried to believe it, your mind and heart just kept telling you different.

So, can you really "choose" to believe something that in your mind and/or heart you simply do not believe?

If an extra-terrestrial being suddenly beamed down in a spaceship in your front yard, or appeared by your bed and talked to you, then you wouldn't have any trouble believing it because your eyes would be opened.

This analogy shows that it takes more than just a CHOICE to believe something. Some people actually WANT to believe, but somehow just can't get there.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:50 AM
 
373 posts, read 312,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
As for God drawing us? Yes, He does, but He draws EVERY person, not just a select few.
True. But each in his own order...

1Cor 15
23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24 then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power--

Look at the Jewish festivals. They are a mirror of the Bible. Like the Jewish farmers have several harvests, God has several harvests too...
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:01 AM
 
373 posts, read 312,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Alright, let me rephrase it a little better: The evidence upon which your saving faith is based is a gift from God.
Allow me to rephrase that even better. Not my words but those of HS...

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:24 AM
 
20,445 posts, read 15,808,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi Mike You opened an interesting thread here.

I do disagree with your point that at the point of hearing the gospel God's Holy Spirit make the gospel understandable and we can accept or reject it. I know from personal experiance, because I heard the gospel many times when I was younger and had no idea what everything meant. All I knew then was what people told me and they told me differant things and I had no idea who was right or wrong.

It was not until I was much older and started studying and praying that my eyes were opened a little. The more I studied and prayed the more I understood. I relized that God was opening my eyes to his truth but it was not all at once and I still have a long way to go.
Refer to John 16:8-11. That's the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit. He makes the issue of salvation understandable. Whether you choose to listen is your choice. Of course whoever is presenting the gospel message has to be giving correct information.

Quote:
I believe that Faith comes from God and it is his faith, All salvation is of God, 100% If we are responsible for our own faith some of the responsability for salvation would be ours. I once had a pastor tell me it was 95% God and 5% us. I don't believe it. It is 100% God.
No it is not His faith. God gave you the ability to have faith in whatever it is you have faith in. The exercise of that faith is your responsibility. It is YOUR faith.

The condition of salvation is personal non-meritorious faith directed toward Jesus Christ who is the object of that faith. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' And that's in spite of the fact that God desires that all men be saved. (1 Tim 2:4.)


The work of salvatioin was done by Christ on the Christ. The means of appropriating what Christ did on the cross is through faith directed toward Christ.
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:47 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,234,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi Mike You opened an interesting thread here.

I do disagree with your point that at the point of hearing the gospel God's Holy Spirit make the gospel understandable and we can accept or reject it. I know from personal experiance, because I heard the gospel many times when I was younger and had no idea what everything meant. All I knew then was what people told me and they told me differant things and I had no idea who was right or wrong.

It was not until I was much older and started studying and praying that my eyes were opened a little. The more I studied and prayed the more I understood. I relized that God was opening my eyes to his truth but it was not all at once and I still have a long way to go.

I believe that Faith comes from God and it is his faith, All salvation is of God, 100% If we are responsible for our own faith some of the responsability for salvation would be ours. I once had a pastor tell me it was 95% God and 5% us. I don't believe it. It is 100% God.

As for the woman's faith saving her of course it did but it still was a gift from God as is everything we have and are. Our very lives are a gift from God. As are all our blessing and all our tributaions. All are a gift from God to transform us into his image.
Deu 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.


Those that believe have been given ears to hear and eyes to see and the ability to understand the gospel and have faith.

Those that do not believe God has not given ears to hear and eyes to see and the ability to understand or repentance and faith.

The scriptures are clear on this, that God hardens some to the gospel and he has mercy on others whom he gives understanding to so that the pirppose of his election might stand.

God does not elect everyone to believe in Christ, in fact most people he does not elect for this ministry as the bride of Christ.

If the lord does not give you understanding you cannot understand, and the lord does not give all people understanding, he gives just a small few the ability to understand while the rest he hardens.

More contradiction of the scriptures ...


Rom 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:


Romans 9:15-18
For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


When God gives us the gift of faith, it is our faith, as anything that is given is owned by the one to whom it was Given, as God does not revoke his gifts.


Romans 11:29
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
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