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Old 01-27-2011, 10:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I believe the scriptures, however I do not believe your commentary regarding them. And neither should anyone else.

The Spirit's convicting of sin (unbelief) is not the same as giving the sinner assurance. You're confusing the scriptures regarding the natural man's ability to hear, understand and receive Christ, and the necessary work of the Spirit that first bestows a new nature within. The natural man (the flesh) has no ability whatsoever to receive Christ and it never will. The sinner must first be regenerated (given a new nature) by the Spirit. The sinner has to have a new nature to hear, understand and believe the Gospel and things of the Spirit. Here is what the scriptures tell us concerning a person born of the Spirit who hears the Gospel:

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

That is not regeneration. It is the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at Gospel hearing.

1 Thess 1:5 'for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction (plērophoria - full assurance, conviction, confidence).

Compare with John 16:8-11.

John 16:8 ''And He when He comes, will convict (elenxei - rebuke, expose)
the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.'


elegchó - elégxō – properly, to convince with solid, compelling evidence, especially to expose (prove wrong, connect).

Both passages speak to the fact that at the point of gospel hearing, the unbeliever by means of the Holy Spirit is presented with the facts concerning his need for salvation.


Quote:
Those regenerated by the Spirit, hear the Gospel with much assurance. They hear the Gospel with the fruit of the Spirit, faith. They know their sins are forgiven with full assurance.
You have confused the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. See the comments above and those which follow.


The idea that regeneration precedes the faith expressed toward Christ as a result of gospel hearing, and by which a person is regenerated, is in complete contradiction of what the word of God says. The Bible states clearly that faith precedes salvation. Man is able to respond to the gospel so that he can obtain eternal salvation. It is through the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) at the point of gospel hearing that a person is able to understand the issue and respond to the gospel by placing his faith in Christ for salvation.


Read carefully what the following verses have to say regarding the fact that faith precedes regeneration - being born again. These passages speak of receiving the Spirit, being sealed with the Spirit, the baptism of the Spirit, having life in Jesus' name. These things are the result of having first directed faith toward Jesus Christ. From these passages it is seen that gospel hearing comes first, which results in faith in Christ which results in salvation.

Gal 3:2 'This is the only thing I want to find out from you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

Eph 1:13 'In Him, you also, after listening to the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.'

John 20:31 'but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 11:17 ''If God therefore gave to them the same gift (referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit; Faith precedes the baptism of the Holy Spirit) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in the Lord's way?''

Rom 10:17 'So faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.'

And last but not least. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'



Simply put, regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ.

Here is a link to some additional information on the subject.
What is regeneration according to the Bible?
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
The KJV renders it this way, which is an entirely different meaning:

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Christ is the first fruit. All others who are His are harvested at His coming.
Not necessarily ... All who are his at the time of his coming will be harvested at that time, but that is not what the scriptures say about who all will be his in the end. According to the scriptures God will subject all things to Christ, and in the end every knee bows and every tongue confess Christ is lord and the whole creation sings his name.

That is to say that after Christ comes he must yet reign until all things are made subject to him, during this time every person God has created will come to Christ one way or another, through baptism of the holy spirit or the baptism of fire.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That is not regeneration. It is the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at Gospel hearing.

1 Thess 1:5 'for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction (plērophoria - full assurance, conviction, confidence).

Compare with John 16:8-11.

John 16:8 ''And He when He comes, will convict (elenxei - rebuke, expose)
the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.'

elegchó - elégxō – properly, to convince with solid, compelling evidence, especially to expose (prove wrong, connect).

Both passages speak to the fact that at the point of gospel hearing, the unbeliever by means of the Holy Spirit is presented with the facts concerning his need for salvation.

You have confused the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. See the comments above and those which follow.

The idea that regeneration precedes the faith expressed toward Christ as a result of gospel hearing, and by which a person is regenerated, is in complete contradiction of what the word of God says. The Bible states clearly that faith precedes salvation. Man is able to respond to the gospel so that he can obtain eternal salvation. It is through the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) at the point of gospel hearing that a person is able to understand the issue and respond to the gospel by placing his faith in Christ for salvation.

Read carefully what the following verses have to say regarding the fact that faith precedes regeneration - being born again. These passages speak of receiving the Spirit, being sealed with the Spirit, the baptism of the Spirit, having life in Jesus' name. These things are the result of having first directed faith toward Jesus Christ. From these passages it is seen that gospel hearing comes first, which results in faith in Christ which results in salvation.

Gal 3:2 'This is the only thing I want to find out from you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

Eph 1:13 'In Him, you also, after listening to the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.'

John 20:31 'but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 11:17 ''If God therefore gave to them the same gift (referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit; Faith precedes the baptism of the Holy Spirit) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in the Lord's way?''

Rom 10:17 'So faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.'

And last but not least. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

Simply put, regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ.

Here is a link to some additional information on the subject.
What is regeneration according to the Bible?
I can see that you're unable to distinguish the act of regeneration (ie: being quickened by the Spirit, or "born of God") from the acts of conversion: Receiving the Spirit, being sealed with the Spirit and being baptized with the Spirit. They are different events that happen at different stages of the salvation process.

Regeneration, which is not conversion, is the quickening by the Spirit that makes a person ready to hear the Gospel, to receive the Spirit of Christ and to be converted. For lack of a better way to illustrate it, I'll use scripture from Ezekiel in the OT. I'll quote from the NASB:

Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

The above illustrates the prep work that God performs on spiritually dead sinners. This is all the work of God. The sinner plays no role in this work whatsoever. The sinner does not will it, decide upon it or ask for it to be done. The sinner is simply the one acted upon by God. This work of God is referred to as regeneration. OK?

During regeneration, a new heart and spirit are given to the previously dead sinner. The regenerated person's heart is now "good soil" (if you will) that has been enabled by the Spirit of Christ to hear the Gospel and receive the things of the Spirit:

Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

After regeneration is accomplished, the quickened spirit (which is now good soil) is able to receive the Spirit of Christ through faith, as Ezekiel tells us using the word "And":

Eze 36:27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Eze 36:28 "And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

The sinner must first be regenerated prior to receiving the things of the Spirit that pertain to conversion.

Believe what you will, but that is how it happens.

It is painfully obvious that you really do not read the scriptures Mike. You're simply posting scriptures and regurgitate commentary gleaned from your "teachers". You can do better than this. I know you can.

I see you've also posted more links. Here are a few more that others might like to read:

Two Views of Regeneration by John Hendryx

Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx

A Defense of Monergistic Regeneration by Gannon Murphy

Regeneration by Robert Reymond

Answering the Critics of Monergism

Enjoy!

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-27-2011 at 03:35 PM..
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:40 PM
 
20,359 posts, read 15,743,543 times
Reputation: 7524
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I can see that you're unable to distinguish the act of regeneration (ie: being quickened by the Spirit, or "born of God") from the acts of conversion: Receiving the Spirit, being sealed with the Spirit and being baptized with the Spirit. They are different events that happen at different stages of the salvation process.
Regeneration is synonymous with being born again. It is the result of faith directed toward Jesus Christ. There are no acts of conversion. At the moment of salvation through one moment of simple non-meritorious faith in Christ there are at least 40 things which God does for the one who has been saved. The baptism of the Spirit and the sealing of the Spirit are but two of the 40 grace gifts that the believer recieves at the moment of salvation.

This is an old thread of mine.

God Does Forty Things For the Believer at the Point of Salvation

Quote:
Regeneration, which is not conversion, is the quickening by the Spirit that makes a person ready to hear the Gospel, to receive the Spirit of Christ and to be converted. For lack of a better way to illustrate it, I'll use scripture from Ezekiel in the OT. I'll quote from the NASB:
NO IT IS NOT. Regeneration is the RESULT of believing in Christ. This belief in Christ comes from hearing the gospel message ( those who do believe that is). Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ [the gospel] (Romans 10:17). Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

Quote:
Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

The above illustrates the prep work that God performs on spiritually dead sinners. This is all the work of God. The sinner plays no role in this work whatsoever. The sinner does not will it, decide upon it or ask for it to be done. The sinner is simply the one acted upon by God. This work of God is referred to as regeneration. OK?
There is no 'prep work' prior to gospel hearing in the way that you mean it. At the point of Gospel hearing the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the issue in salvation understandable to the gospel hearer. At that point the gospel hearer must evaluate the evidence presented in the gospel message and decide if he believes the evidence or not. If he has been persuaded that what the gospel says is true, then he places his faith in Christ for salvation and the Holy Spirit makes that faith effective for salvation.

Quote:
During regeneration, a new heart and spirit are given to the previously dead sinner. The regenerated person's heart is now "good soil" (if you will) that has been enabled by the Spirit of Christ to hear the Gospel and receive the things of the Spirit:

Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Again, you confuse regeneration with the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at the point of gospel hearing. Regeneration is the result of faith which comes from gospel hearing.


Quote:
After regeneration is accomplished, the quickened spirit (which is now good soil) is able to receive the Spirit of Christ through faith, as Ezekiel tells us using the word "And":

Eze 36:27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Eze 36:28 "And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

The sinner must first be regenerated prior to receiving the things of the Spirit that pertain to conversion.

Believe what you will, but that is how it happens.

It is painfully obvious that you really do not read the scriptures Mike. You're simply posting scriptures and regurgitate commentary gleaned from your "teachers". You can do better than this. I know you can.

I see you've also posted more links. Here are a few more that others might like to read:

Two Views of Regeneration by John Hendryx

Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx

A Defense of Monergistic Regeneration by Gannon Murphy

Regeneration by Robert Reymond

Answering the Critics of Monergism

Enjoy!
Again, faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (the gospel message) Romans 10:17.

Calvinism contradicts the word of God. Calvinism says that you must be saved before you can believe. The word of God says the opposite. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...''

Since you mentioned my teachers, it is only fitting that I provide access to them.

1. Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX ; 1a. Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

2. Class Archive - Joe Griffin Media Ministries ; 2a. Home - Grace Doctrine Church (http://www.gdconline.org/default.aspx - broken link)

3. Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:46 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,321,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Regeneration is synonymous with being born again. It is the result of faith directed toward Jesus Christ. There are no acts of conversion. At the moment of salvation through one moment of simple non-meritorious faith in Christ there are at least 40 things which God does for the one who has been saved. The baptism of the Spirit and the sealing of the Spirit are but two of the 40 grace gifts that the believer recieves at the moment of salvation.

This is an old thread of mine.

God Does Forty Things For the Believer at the Point of Salvation

NO IT IS NOT. Regeneration is the RESULT of believing in Christ. This belief in Christ comes from hearing the gospel message ( those who do believe that is). Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ [the gospel] (Romans 10:17). Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

There is no 'prep work' prior to gospel hearing in the way that you mean it. At the point of Gospel hearing the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the issue in salvation understandable to the gospel hearer. At that point the gospel hearer must evaluate the evidence presented in the gospel message and decide if he believes the evidence or not. If he has been persuaded that what the gospel says is true, then he places his faith in Christ for salvation and the Holy Spirit makes that faith effective for salvation.

Again, you confuse regeneration with the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at the point of gospel hearing. Regeneration is the result of faith which comes from gospel hearing.

Again, faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (the gospel message) Romans 10:17.

Calvinism contradicts the word of God. Calvinism says that you must be saved before you can believe. The word of God says the opposite. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...''

Since you mentioned my teachers, it is only fitting that I provide access to them.

1. Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX ; 1a. Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

2. Class Archive - Joe Griffin Media Ministries ; 2a. Home - Grace Doctrine Church (http://www.gdconline.org/default.aspx - broken link)

3. Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
You've yet to address the scriptures and my points made. All you're doing here is repeating the same mantra from previous posts. Can you at least sing me a different song...or tap dance with a new pair of shoes on...it's becoming tiresome...lol

Concerning conversion. A person must first have eyes that are spiritually opened and a heart that will understand in-order to be converted. Conversion follows after the act of regeneration.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Even Peter needed to be converted (turn again) a second time after denying Christ. And yet Peter was always born of the Spirit:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

My friend, Calvinism does not say "you must be saved" prior to faith, it says one must be born of the Spirit (regenerated) for Gospel faith to be present that receives Christ. I understand it's hard for you to grasp this concept and the ideas more commonly referred to as reformed theology, but you really should read the links I posted. Give your Arminian "teachers" a rest, at least for a day or two and look at those articles. Both you, and perhaps even your "teachers", will benefit from it.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
You've yet to address the scriptures and my points made. All you're doing here is repeating the same mantra from previous posts. Can you at least sing me a different song...or tap dance with a new pair of shoes on...it's becoming tiresome...lol

Concerning conversion. A person must first have eyes that are spiritually opened and a heart that will understand in-order to be converted. Conversion follows after the act of regeneration.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Even Peter needed to be converted (turn again) a second time after denying Christ. And yet Peter was always born of the Spirit:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

My friend, Calvinism does not say "you must be saved" prior to faith, it says one must be born of the Spirit (regenerated) for Gospel faith to be present that receives Christ. I understand it's hard for you to grasp this concept and the ideas more commonly referred to as reformed theology, but you really should read the links I posted. Give your Arminian "teachers" a rest, at least for a day or two and look at those articles. Both you, and perhaps even your "teachers", will benefit from it.
I'll keep repeating the truth.

As for regeneration, that is being saved. One who has been regenerated has been saved. To be regenerated means to be born again. To be born again means that God has imputed His righteousness as well as His eternal life to the one who believes in Christ for salvation. Therefore in saying that one must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel you are saying that one must be saved in order to believe.

Peter didn't lose his salvation when he denied Christ. He did not need to be converted again. He simply stumbled and had to get back on his feet again and start walking in faith.

With regard to you being tired of my answers, you can leave the thread at any time.
And I am not Arminian. Nor are the pastor's from whom I learn.
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'll keep repeating the truth.

As for regeneration, that is being saved. One who has been regenerated has been saved. To be regenerated means to be born again. To be born again means that God has imputed His righteousness as well as His eternal life to the one who believes in Christ for salvation. Therefore in saying that one must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel you are saying that one must be saved in order to believe.

Peter didn't lose his salvation when he denied Christ. He did not need to be converted again. He simply stumbled and had to get back on his feet again and start walking in faith.

With regard to you being tired of my answers, you can leave the thread at any time.
And I am not Arminian. Nor are the pastor's from whom I learn.
The word saved, or being saved, has a very broad range of meaning in scripture. It is sometimes referred to as a past tense event, a present tense reality and also a future tense of something yet to come. And yes, those born of the Spirit (regenerated) are saved in the sense of having eternal life, but not in the fullest sense of how scripture defines salvation. Here, I'll give you one example to make my point:

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

The word saved here is being used in the future tense of those that are NOW justified in Christ's blood (aorist tense).

I'm sorry Mike, but unfortunately your posts and commentary on scripture do not really convey the truth.

This is getting old, but I'm only doing this for the lurkers that might find this thread...
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Old 01-28-2011, 11:00 AM
 
20,359 posts, read 15,743,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The word saved, or being saved, has a very broad range of meaning in scripture. It is sometimes referred to as a past tense event, a present tense reality and also a future tense of something yet to come. And yes, those born of the Spirit (regenerated) are saved in the sense of having eternal life, but not in the fullest sense of how scripture defines salvation. Here, I'll give you one example to make my point:

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

The word saved here is being used in the future tense of those that are NOW justified in Christ's blood (aorist tense).

I'm sorry Mike, but unfortunately your posts and commentary on scripture do not really convey the truth.

This is getting old, but I'm only doing this for the lurkers that might find this thread...
The New Testament Epistles are addressed to believers. Therefore more oftern then not, when salvation is mentioned it is not referring to eternal salvation but to --call it, temporal salvation. Having to do with matters of experiential sanctification.

But when eternal salvation is referred to, the salvation of the soul occurs immediately at the moment of faith in Christ. The salvation of the body takes place at the resurrection of the body.



What I post on this forum is fundamental orthodox theology.
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Old 01-28-2011, 12:18 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,321,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The New Testament Epistles are addressed to believers. Therefore more oftern then not, when salvation is mentioned it is not referring to eternal salvation but to --call it, temporal salvation. Having to do with matters of experiential sanctification.

But when eternal salvation is referred to, the salvation of the soul occurs immediately at the moment of faith in Christ. The salvation of the body takes place at the resurrection of the body.

What I post on this forum is fundamental orthodox theology.
I'm glad you agree with me that the word saved is used by scripture in a myriad of ways.

Call your doctrines as you will. However, your "Fundamental theology" today, which is actually main-line Arminianism (except for OSAS) was neither orthodox or fundamental during the Protestant reformation. Even your OSAS is really not in keeping with early Protestant thought on this subject.

Do you have any idea where your doctrines originated from and how those doctrines came into being? I think it would be wise for you to take a closer look at Church History during the 15th and 16th century... Go back 500 years or so to the early beginnings of the Protestant Reformation and follow the paths to what you now call "orthodox" theology, OK?
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Old 01-28-2011, 04:08 PM
 
20,359 posts, read 15,743,543 times
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Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'm glad you agree with me that the word saved is used by scripture in a myriad of ways.

Call your doctrines as you will. However, your "Fundamental theology" today, which is actually main-line Arminianism (except for OSAS) was neither orthodox or fundamental during the Protestant reformation. Even your OSAS is really not in keeping with early Protestant thought on this subject.

Do you have any idea where your doctrines originated from and how those doctrines came into being? I think it would be wise for you to take a closer look at Church History during the 15th and 16th century... Go back 500 years or so to the early beginnings of the Protestant Reformation and follow the paths to what you now call "orthodox" theology, OK?
Bible doctrine originates from the word of God. All that I post on this forum is Biblical. I am not going to quibble about the meaning of 'orthodox'. I am well aware that certain doctrines contained in the word of God got buried or lost during the dark ages. With the reformation these doctrines began to be recovered.

As for the eternal security of the believer, the Bible is absolutey clear on that matter.
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