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Old 07-27-2011, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vessif View Post
God Word says every man is given a measure of Faith...It is a gift of God....It comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God....The seeds of Faith are planted when we hear the Gospel but that's only the beginning....Will those seeds take root???...(Read Jesus Parable)...Saving Faith is the faith that comes when we are Born Again...Having heard the Gospel we must make a "sincere humble decision"... we humbly repent of sin recognizing our spiritual depravity..Turning to Jesus Christ and trusting fully in God for our Salvation...and each day take up our cross and follow Him.....
First of all there is no such thing as "free" decision ... And yes it has to do with the soil of a persons heart, and it is God who tills the field of our hearts and makes them ready to receive the seed, and it is God who gives the increase. So god is the one who toils in our heats, it is he who plants the seeds by way of his messengers, and it is he who gives the increase.

So if our hearts are stony or shallow and if the seed gets choked out or carried away or crushed under foot, it is because God has not yet toiled the field of that heart and removed the brambles and stones from the field of that heart, etc ... And if the seed does not increase to fruit after taking root it is because God has not yet given the increase.

Nevertheless God will toil in the field of the hearts of all people, and he will give the increase in the hearts of all so that all WILL bow and confess that Christ is lord openly and celebrate while giveing thank to the glory of the father.

Think, what does a person do to make a barren field fertile? Remember that nothing is impossible for God ... God will succeed in persuading every being in creation, its just a matter of time, each in their own order.
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
Faith is from Christ to the elect

Acts 26:18

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

This is a astounding message from Jesus to paul, in that Jesus is saying that faith is that which is in him..

Notice he says not " and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in me, but by faith that is in me..

That is into the sphere of him..Faith is from Christ and of Christ.

This is why we have verses that phrase faith as the faith of christ..notice:

Rom 3:22

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Gal 2:16

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.



Gal 3:22

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The elect receive faith to believe in him, because of His Faith and Faithfulness to the covenant engagements of the everlasting covenant..



Notice Heb 2:10-13

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.


vs 13 is very revealing, in that it shows that Christ trusted in the Father, that he would raise him from the dead, and it reveals, that those for whom he would die for, [ the children or seed] would also trust as well..

All those given to Christ, entrusted to him, will eventually believe or trust in their salvation news..

Look at Eph 1:12-14

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What do we see here ? vs 12, that those who first trusted in Christ, was to his glory..

This refers back to Heb 2:13

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Now in Eph 1:12 it refers to the apostles or Christ ordained messengers as those to Christ glory first trusted..

And this was before he died and rose again, did they trust in him, but nevertheless it was still a result of his God Man Mediatorial glory he always had before the world began Jn 17:5-6

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept[ trusted] thy word.

But paul goes on to say to the chosen Ephesian believers, that they also are to the praise of Christ Mediatorial glory, because after they heard the gospel of their salvation, they too trusted and trusting is believing as we see from the second portion of Eph 1:13

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So the trusting culminating in believing, is to the praise of his glory, that is Jesus Christ Glory..

The elect trust and believe as a result of His glory He achieved after his death, burial, and resurrection..This is when he entered back into His glory he had before the world began..


Lk 24:26

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Faith or believing in Christ is a result and the fruit of his death and entering into His glory..

Notice Jn 12:23-32

23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


The fruit of Christ death, is to draw all men [ not just jews] to believe in him..

So as a result of the Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ, as an aspect of His Glory, He allots faith from him, to the elect.

2 Pet 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Faith to know you are saved comes from the Mediatorial Glory of the Saviour..

He is our Saviour because he saved you..makes sense right ?

This Faith is given to the elect, so its termed the Faith of Gods elect..

Titus 1:1

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;


It was also the Faith of Christ as He also was Gods Elect..

Isa 42:1

1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Again this alludes back to Heb 2:13,

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

The faith of the elect one Christ, begets faith into the elect, the children given him in election...

Jesus Christ is the means and source of our faith, thats why its termed Eph 2:
8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jesus Christ is Gods Gift to the elect, they are saved through and by him, and He gives them faith as a result..

Notice as well, Jn 3:17

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Notice here in Jn 3:17 the world will be saved through Him Jesus Christ..

Eph 2 terms it saved by grace through faith

That is through Jesus Christ as Jn 3:17

This is because Christ is called faith in one verse Gal 3:23

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.



That is faith [ Jesus Christ] came to reveal His Salvation to His people..

This is what John the baptist father meant in Lk 1:67-77

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77To give knowledge [or Faith] of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Amen, Jesus Christ reveals salvation to the elect, by faith, His faith, faith that is in him..



Remission of sins, is because our sins have been propitiated, He is our propitiation and he gives us knowledge to know this blessed truth in the gospel..

So Faith is from Christ to His elect..to cause them to believe in Him for His Glory..
I have explained quite well in the original post that saving faith is a response to the gospel. Saving faith comes from the individual as a result of believing what the gospel message says about Christ. Saving faith preceeds salvation. Christ did the work of salvation on the cross. The gospel message reveals the good news about what Christ did on the cross. If the one who hears the gospel message believes it, he trusts in Christ for eternal salvation.

God desires that all men be saved. He therefore does not give faith to some so that they will be saved, only to withhold faith from others so that they can't be saved. Again, God desires that all men be saved, and yet, all men will not be saved.

And by the way, our sins have not been propitiated. Propitiation means satisfaction. The work of Christ on the cross satisfied or propitiated God the Father.
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:22 PM
 
37,649 posts, read 25,348,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
First of all there is no such thing as "free" decision ... And yes it has to do with the soil of a persons heart, and it is God who tills the field of our hearts and makes them ready to receive the seed, and it is God who gives the increase. So god is the one who toils in our heats, it is he who plants the seeds by way of his messengers, and it is he who gives the increase.

So if our hearts are stony or shallow and if the seed gets choked out or carried away or crushed under foot, it is because God has not yet toiled the field of that heart and removed the brambles and stones from the field of that heart, etc ... And if the seed does not increase to fruit after taking root it is because God has not yet given the increase.

Nevertheless God will toil in the field of the hearts of all people, and he will give the increase in the hearts of all so that all WILL bow and confess that Christ is lord openly and celebrate while giveing thank to the glory of the father.

Think, what does a person do to make a barren field fertile? Remember that nothing is impossible for God ... God will succeed in persuading every being in creation, its just a matter of time, each in their own order.
The "special people" will not easily give up their preferred position, Iron. It "tickles their ears" and feeds their ego to be among the elect (in their own minds). The irony is that if believing IN Christ was a choice for them . . . that means they do not truly believe ON Christ. True belief is never a choice . . . it just IS. Intellectual acceptance of one alternative over others is a choice but implies that none of them are truly believed or it wouldn't be a choice.
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:35 PM
 
17,955 posts, read 8,955,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The work of Christ on the cross satisfied or propitiated God the Father.
Not the satisfaction theory; to appease a wrathful God?
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:48 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,770,263 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have explained quite well in the original post that saving faith is a response to the gospel. Saving faith comes from the individual as a result of believing what the gospel message says about Christ. Saving faith preceeds salvation. Christ did the work of salvation on the cross. The gospel message reveals the good news about what Christ did on the cross. If the one who hears the gospel message believes it, he trusts in Christ for eternal salvation.

God desires that all men be saved. He therefore does not give faith to some so that they will be saved, only to withhold faith from others so that they can't be saved. Again, God desires that all men be saved,
ANd this is where the buck needs to stop. What you said after this is just drivel and if you stop and think about what I'm saying you will see it. Study up on it, read all about it.......remember that? I don't but I think you're an old codger that won't listen to reason so you might remember that. I know, I'm so not funny. That's okay, God bless you for trying but I'm not buying any of it and neither are you and that's why you're still here. There's something, somewhere that makes you go hmmmphf, this is not what I signed up for!! LOL!
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:11 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Mike555 -- You've done an impressive job of translating the Greek and various forms and tenses of the word 'Faith' -- However, do you really think that 'faith' is intended to require such an in-depth study to grasp it? (What then happens to those who come to Christ as a 'little child'?)

Scripture provides hundreds of examples of 'faith' --- and while we believers certainly exercise the 'faith' they have been given ... it is equally clear that Faith is: (1) A 'fruit of the Holy Spirit' - Gal. 5:22; and (2) also A 'Spiritual Gift' - 1 Cor. 12:4-11. Both of these are clearly 'gifts' of God that have their origin via His indwelling Holy Spirit ... and are not from man.

I question your conclusion from the Greek, that Eph 2:8 .... "Is not really saying that faith is a gift of God" ...("lest any man should boast ... AKA: Claim that God 'owes man, because of man's faith'). While your Greek is impressive, the scriptures were originally translated from Aramaic and Hebrew into Greek. Therefore, I'm not sure how rigid we can really be with Eph. 2:8 -- particularly in light of the clarifying clause. (Aren't we also told that "no man comes to Christ, unless the Father draws him"? --- again, clarifying the source of a 'believer's faith.')

Your reference to Rom. 10:17, "Faith comes (to us) by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ" seems to again make it very clear that the faith and the Word are both from God, not from man.

Additionally, we are told in Rom 1:18-22 that God has 'given' every being a knowledge of His eternal power and deity ... so that those who suppress the truth, are without excuse." This sounds to me like an 'inborn measure of faith' -- that we can either accept or reject, but, certainly not something that people conjure-up out of their own resources.
All i can say is this is what happens when one does not balance the scripture with other scripture...If he says this here then that over there cannot mean what i think it means...It has to be talking about something else for it to make sense...If Paul says that you are saved by Grace, not of works...And choosing is a work...then where does it come from?...Eph. clarifies it by saying that it is a gift of God, not from ourselves...So, that no one may boast...IOW no one can say that they deserve Salvation because they made the right choice (a work)...Or walked righteous under their own steam...It is all clearly a work of God and no one else...
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Old 07-29-2011, 02:41 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The "special people" will not easily give up their preferred position, Iron. It "tickles their ears" and feeds their ego to be among the elect (in their own minds). The irony is that if believing IN Christ was a choice for them . . . that means they do not truly believe ON Christ. True belief is never a choice . . . it just IS. Intellectual acceptance of one alternative over others is a choice but implies that none of them are truly believed or it wouldn't be a choice.
You got it wrong...You lack humility...,
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Old 07-29-2011, 03:15 PM
 
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Simply put would God be "Just" if he condemned people without giving them a choice in life? I think it's clear "choice" is a huge part of life, and we all have choice in life to do God's will or our own. He just knows what choices we are going to make in life. He's outside time, and we are in it. This is why we are told to preach against sin for instance. No need to if it wasn't our choice. Why would God call people fools/foolish if it wasn't their choice? A merciful God wouldn't condemn people without giving them a choice. He wouldn't call them fools if they could choose to be wise and follow his ways. Choice is a big part of this life.

The more I read, the more I see salvation is 100 percent gift. I think it's dangerous to walk around even presuming one is saved, but this could just be paranoia. In the end it looks to be an act of mercy. Choose to not sin. Choose to walk righteously. Pray, and be humble.
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:23 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Simply put would God be "Just" if he condemned people without giving them a choice in life? I think it's clear "choice" is a huge part of life, and we all have choice in life to do God's will or our own. He just knows what choices we are going to make in life. He's outside time, and we are in it. This is why we are told to preach against sin for instance. No need to if it wasn't our choice. Why would God call people fools/foolish if it wasn't their choice? A merciful God wouldn't condemn people without giving them a choice. He wouldn't call them fools if they could choose to be wise and follow his ways. Choice is a big part of this life.

The more I read, the more I see salvation is 100 percent gift. I think it's dangerous to walk around even presuming one is saved, but this could just be paranoia. In the end it looks to be an act of mercy. Choose to not sin. Choose to walk righteously. Pray, and be humble.
That is a Salvation of Works...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph_2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Heb_4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:24 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Simply put would God be "Just" if he condemned people without giving them a choice in life? .
Yes, He would...Did He give Pharaoh a chance?...
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