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Old 07-30-2011, 08:47 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,218,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yes, He would...Did He give Pharaoh a chance?...
Your understanding of justice is what i understand to be tyranny and barbarity ...
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Old 07-31-2011, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,391,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Your understanding of justice is what i understand to be tyranny and barbarity ...

I couldn't agree with you more.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:09 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
Reputation: 7497
[quote=Ilene Wright;20226606]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike555
I have explained quite well in the original post that saving faith is a response to the gospel. Saving faith comes from the individual as a result of believing what the gospel message says about Christ. Saving faith preceeds salvation. Christ did the work of salvation on the cross. The gospel message reveals the good news about what Christ did on the cross. If the one who hears the gospel message believes it, he trusts in Christ for eternal salvation.

God desires that all men be saved. He therefore does not give faith to some so that they will be saved, only to withhold faith from others so that they can't be saved. Again, God desires that all men be saved
,




Ilene Wright reacted with the following...
ANd this is where the buck needs to stop. What you said after this is just drivel and if you stop and think about what I'm saying you will see it. Study up on it, read all about it.......remember that? I don't but I think you're an old codger that won't listen to reason so you might remember that. I know, I'm so not funny. That's okay, God bless you for trying but I'm not buying any of it and neither are you and that's why you're still here. There's something, somewhere that makes you go hmmmphf, this is not what I signed up for!! LOL!
First, to go back over that part of my statement that you quoted above...

Saving faith comes from the individual as a result of believing what the gospel message says about Christ. Saving faith preceeds salvation.


Eph 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not of works, that no one should boast. This is not saying that your faith is a gift of God, it is a reference to salvation which comes by means of the grace of God through nonmeritorious faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:14 'How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 'And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ''How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!'' 16] However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, ''Lord, who has believed our report? 17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


Faith in Christ is a response to the gospel message concerning what Christ accomplished on the cross.

Going back to Ephesians 2:8-9, the word 'touto' -translated as 'that' or 'this', is in the Neuter, whereas the words 'faith' and 'grace' are both in the Feminine. Therefore, 'touto' -'that', is not referring to either one. Rather, what is being referred to is the more general concept of salvation (Eph 2:4-8). 'That salvation is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works.' The basis of salvation is grace, and the means by which salvation is appropriated is through faith in Christ. Salvation does not have its source in man, but in God. Salvation is a gift from God. This is reinforced in verse 9 'not as a result of works' because the basis is grace. Romans 11:6 'But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

As for faith, the only way that saving faith can be said to be from God is in the general sense that ultimately, everything is from God. God gave you the ability to think, but you must do the thinking. In the same way, God gave you the ability to have faith, but you must come up with the faith response to the gospel in order to be saved. You must do the believing. God is not going to do the believing for you. The faith comes from you.


Now here is what I said after that, and which you call drivel. ''God desires that all men be saved, and yet, all men will not be saved''.


The Scriptures are quite clear to those who will be honest with themselves, that the place commonly referred to as 'hell' is real and that all who do not come to God the Father through Jesus Christ will spend the eternal future there. Scripture after scripture affirms this, and those passages are known to you and will not be gone into here.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:12 PM
 
672 posts, read 538,050 times
Reputation: 38
mike555

Quote:
Saving faith comes from the individual
Thats Error. Faith comes From God the Saviour 2 Pet 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:16 PM
 
672 posts, read 538,050 times
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Yes Faith is from Jesus Christ to the elect, His seed..when one is born again of the word of God 1 Pet 1:23

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The seed of the word is planted or inplanted..James says this James 1:21

21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

The word engrafted is the greek word:

emphytos:

inborn, implanted by nature

So its the inborn word, or implanted word by means of a new nature, a new creation..

keep this in mind as we now look at Rom 10:17,8

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So its the hearing [ by the inborn word] that brings faith..now, look at what paul says about that same word in vs 8

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Notice he says, that the word is in thy heart ? Thats because he is speaking about regenerated born again jews, who could hear, and that hearing causes faith..vs 17..

So the implanted word in the soul or the heart, by regeneration or new birth, calls forth Faith..Faith to believe upon Jesus Christ..

The false teachers of our day don't understand this great truth, but may God , in His Triune perfections be Glorified today..
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:43 PM
 
484 posts, read 335,021 times
Reputation: 80
I've seen responses and comments from UR believers that seem to give some assent to the sovereignty of God, in that they don't appear to give man credit for his salvation.

That's a good start. A verse like Ephesians 2:8 does tell us that faith is "the gift of God" (not of ourselves).

The Bible does make it clear that salvation is entirely God's work. It manifests itself through a profession on our part; but it is God's wrok, entirely.

The place where we part company is with the suggestion that not everyone will become saved, because not everyone makes this profession of faith. In fact, many go kicking and screaming to their death with an emphatic "No!" to Christ. We see a great deal of rejection of the Gospel even within the accounts we read in Scripture, to the point where those who brought the Gospel were put to death.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:21 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
mike555



Thats Error. Faith comes From God the Saviour 2 Pet 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
No, it is not error. Go back and read carefully what I said in post #83. God gives you the ability to believe, but you must do the believing. Just as God gives you the ability to think, but you must make the effort to think. The faith comes from you in response to the gospel message concerning Christ. Having faith in Christ means having confidence in Him, trusting Him for salvation. If faith came directly from God then God would be responsible for those who never had faith in Christ and as a result will spend eternity in hell. God desires that all men be saved, but all men are NOT saved. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:24 PM
 
37,660 posts, read 25,365,683 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
The place where we part company is with the suggestion that not everyone will become saved, because not everyone makes this profession of faith. In fact, many go kicking and screaming to their death with an emphatic "No!" to Christ. We see a great deal of rejection of the Gospel even within the accounts we read in Scripture, to the point where those who brought the Gospel were put to death.
How do you reconcile faith being the work of God and then require a profession of it by us? Either it is of God or it is of us . . . it cannot be both. The simple reality is that true belief has nothing to do with our choices. If we have to choose between alternatives . . . then we do not truly believe any of them. We cannot choose to believe. We can only choose to intellectually accept what we do not believe and I can see no value to God in that.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 08-01-2011 at 09:09 PM..
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:30 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,734,050 times
Reputation: 7497
Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
Yes Faith is from Jesus Christ to the elect, His seed..when one is born again of the word of God 1 Pet 1:23

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The seed of the word is planted or inplanted..James says this James 1:21

21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

The word engrafted is the greek word:

emphytos:

inborn, implanted by nature

So its the inborn word, or implanted word by means of a new nature, a new creation..

keep this in mind as we now look at Rom 10:17,8

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So its the hearing [ by the inborn word] that brings faith..now, look at what paul says about that same word in vs 8

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Notice he says, that the word is in thy heart ? Thats because he is speaking about regenerated born again jews, who could hear, and that hearing causes faith..vs 17..

So the implanted word in the soul or the heart, by regeneration or new birth, calls forth Faith..Faith to believe upon Jesus Christ..

The false teachers of our day don't understand this great truth, but may God , in His Triune perfections be Glorified today..
Regeneration does NOT preceed faith. Faith is the means by which the gift of salvation is taken possession of. Eph 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith. After salvation, studying the word of God can cause your faith to grow. But saving faith in Christ is the means by which one receives the gift of salvation.

Again, I refer you to post #83.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:14 PM
 
672 posts, read 538,050 times
Reputation: 38
mike:

Quote:
No, it is not error.
Yes it is error.
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