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Old 01-23-2011, 02:29 PM
 
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There is a difference of opinion on whether faith comes from the believer, or if it comes from God. There need be no confusion on the matter. It is simply a matter of understanding how faith is used in the Bible.

The word translated as faith is the Greek word Pistis and means ''persuade, be persuaded'' – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Pistis is used in different ways in the Bible.

1) Pistis is used for our personal saving faith which comes from us in response to what God has revealed about Himself in the Gospel.

2) Pistis is used for;
A. 'The faith' - the Christian faith - Christianity
B. The Gospel
This faith comes from God. Jesus Christ is the author of (not our faith) but the faith - the Gospel.

3) Pistis is used for the measure of faith mentioned in Rom 12:3 The measure of faith which would enable one to exercise spiritual gifts. Rom 12:4-8 shows that this is Paul's meaning. It is not the ordinary personal faith in Christ which results in eternal salvation that is in view here, but rather the extraordinary faith, which was accompanied in the first century by supernatural gifts, that is meant. This faith came from God.



1) Personal saving faith. The faith which saves is non-meritorious and is a response to what has been revealed in the Gospel with regard to Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the Cross.

Many people erroniously think that Ephesians 2:8 says that personal faith comes from God. It does not say that.

Ephesians 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith (pisteos - Genitive Singular Feminine), and this (touto - Nominative Singular Neuter) is not of yourselves, it is the gift (doron - Nominative Singular Neuter) of God;

Pisteos - Faith, is in the Genitive Singular Feminine while the word 'this' is in the Nominative Singular Neuter. Therefore, the rules of Greek grammar forbid the word 'this' from refering to the word 'faith'. The word 'this' is referring to the word 'gift' which is also in the Nominative Singular Neuter. It is salvation which is a gift from God. Here is what Acts 11:17 says. ''If God therefore gave to them the same gift (referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs at the moment of salvation) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?'' As is seen in that passage, the gift of salvation is given after believing; after expressing personal non-meritorious faith in the object of salvation which is Jesus Christ. In Ephesians 2, prior to verse 8 the subject is salvation, not faith. Please refer to the following site for more information concerning Ephesians 2:8. WHAT IS THE

Romans 10:17 states the following. 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.' Personal saving faith results from hearing the Gospel message which reveals who Jesus Christ is and what He did at the Cross to provide salvation. The means of receiving the offer of the gift of salvation is through an act of non-meritorious faith directed toward the object of salvation which is Jesus Christ.

It is no different than a child learning that he can trust his parents because they have shown the child that they are trustworthy. Therefore, the child has faith in his parents.

Luke 7:50 'And He (Jesus) said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.'' The woman's personal faith was directed toward Jesus and therefore she was saved. She trusted Jesus to save her, and as a result, she was saved.




2) Pistis used for 'The faith - the Christian faith; the Gospel.

Compare Acts 13:7 with verse 8. 'who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8] But Elymas the magician (for thus his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith (tes pisteos). In this passage, 'the faith' is a reference to the word of God with reference to the Gospel.

Galatians 1:23 'but only, they kept hearing, ''He (Paul) who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith (ten pistin) which he once tried to destroy.'' In this passage 'the faith' refers to the gospel, and to the word of God in general - the Christian faith.

Philippians 1:25 'And convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith (tes pisteos).' Here 'the faith' of which Paul speaks is the Christian faith - Christianity.

Jude 3 'Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealling that you contend earnestly for the faith (te pistei) which was once for all delivered to the saints. Here, 'the faith' refers to the Christian faith, the gospel, Bible doctrine.

Titus 1:13 'This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith (te pistei), 14] not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.' Here, 'the faith' refers to the Christian faith - Christianity - Bible doctrine - the truth.

Hebrews 12:2 is not 'our faith' as it has been translated in some Bibles. Actually the NASB simply says 'the author and perfecter of faith. There is no word in the Greek of this passage to warrant the use of the word 'our'. The Greek says 'tes pisteos. Tes actually means 'the', but has been translated as 'of' in this passage. Saving faith comes from us and not from God, so Jesus is not the author of the personal faith expressed toward Jesus which results in eternal salvation, but He is the author of eternal salvation itself. And he is the author of the faith - the Gospel. However, Heb 12:1 speaks of 'running the race which is set before us' which refers to the Christian life after salvation.

The Peoples New Testament says the following.

The author and finisher of [our] faith. Not our faith, but the faith in the Greek. The Gospel, which rests upon faith, is meant rather than the individual faith of the saint. Jesus is its author and perfected it. He is the exemplar of all who live by faith. Hence we should look to him.
Hebrews 12 People's New Testament

Hebrews 12:2 'fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith (tes pisteos), who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.




3) Pistis is used for the measure of faith mentioned in Rom 12:3

Romans 12:3 'For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Obviously, this does not refer to personal saving faith. Paul is speaking to believers. Not to unbelievers. It is clear that not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ.

The measure of faith refers to the faith which would enable one to exercise spiritual gifts. Rom 12:4-8 shows that this is Paul's meaning. It is not the ordinary personal faith directed toward Jesus Christ which results in eternal salvation which is in view here, but rather the extraordinary faith, which was accompanied in the first century by supernatural gifts, that is meant. This faith came from God.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-23-2011 at 02:39 PM..
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,137,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is a difference of opinion on whether faith comes from the believer, or if it comes from God. There need be no confusion on the matter. It is simply a matter of understanding how faith is used in the Bible.

The word translated as faith is the Greek word Pistis and means ''persuade, be persuaded'' properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Pistis is used in different ways in the Bible.

1) Pistis is used for our personal saving faith which comes from us in response to what God has revealed about Himself in the Gospel.

2) Pistis is used for;
A. 'The faith' - the Christian faith - Christianity
B. The Gospel
This faith comes from God. Jesus Christ is the author of (not our faith) but the faith - the Gospel.

3) Pistis is used for the measure of faith mentioned in Rom 12:3 The measure of faith which would enable one to exercise spiritual gifts. Rom 12:4-8 shows that this is Paul's meaning. It is not the ordinary personal faith in Christ which results in eternal salvation that is in view here, but rather the extraordinary faith, which was accompanied in the first century by supernatural gifts, that is meant. This faith came from God.



1) Personal saving faith. The faith which saves is non-meritorious and is a response to what has been revealed in the Gospel with regard to Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the Cross.

Many people erroniously think that Ephesians 2:8 says that personal faith comes from God. It does not say that.

Ephesians 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith (pisteos - Genitive Singular Feminine), and this (touto - Nominative Singular Neuter) is not of yourselves, it is the gift (doron - Nominative Singular Neuter) of God;

Pisteos - Faith, is in the Genitive Singular Feminine while the word 'this' is in the Nominative Singular Neuter. Therefore, the rules of Greek grammar forbid the word 'this' from refering to the word 'faith'. The word 'this' is referring to the word 'gift' which is also in the Nominative Singular Neuter. It is salvation which is a gift from God. Here is what Acts 11:17 says. ''If God therefore gave to them the same gift (referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs at the moment of salvation) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?'' As is seen in that passage, the gift of salvation is given after believing; after expressing personal non-meritorious faith in the object of salvation which is Jesus Christ. In Ephesians 2, prior to verse 8 the subject is salvation, not faith. Please refer to the following site for more information concerning Ephesians 2:8. WHAT IS THE

Romans 10:17 states the following. 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.' Personal saving faith results from hearing the Gospel message which reveals who Jesus Christ is and what He did at the Cross to provide salvation. The means of receiving the offer of the gift of salvation is through an act of non-meritorious faith directed toward the object of salvation which is Jesus Christ.

It is no different than a child learning that he can trust his parents because they have shown the child that they are trustworthy. Therefore, the child has faith in his parents.

Luke 7:50 'And He (Jesus) said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.'' The woman's personal faith was directed toward Jesus and therefore she was saved. She trusted Jesus to save her, and as a result, she was saved.




2) Pistis used for 'The faith - the Christian faith; the Gospel.

Compare Acts 13:7 with verse 8. 'who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8] But Elymas the magician (for thus his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith (tes pisteos). In this passage, 'the faith' is a reference to the word of God with reference to the Gospel.

Galatians 1:23 'but only, they kept hearing, ''He (Paul) who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith (ten pistin) which he once tried to destroy.'' In this passage 'the faith' refers to the gospel, and to the word of God in general - the Christian faith.

Philippians 1:25 'And convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith (tes pisteos).' Here 'the faith' of which Paul speaks is the Christian faith - Christianity.

Jude 3 'Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealling that you contend earnestly for the faith (te pistei) which was once for all delivered to the saints. Here, 'the faith' refers to the Christian faith, the gospel, Bible doctrine.

Titus 1:13 'This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith (te pistei), 14] not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.' Here, 'the faith' refers to the Christian faith - Christianity - Bible doctrine - the truth.

Hebrews 12:2 is not 'our faith' as it has been translated in some Bibles. Actually the NASB simply says 'the author and perfecter of faith. There is no word in the Greek of this passage to warrant the use of the word 'our'. The Greek says 'tes pisteos. Tes actually means 'the', but has been translated as 'of' in this passage. Saving faith comes from us and not from God, so Jesus is not the author of the personal faith expressed toward Jesus which results in eternal salvation, but He is the author of eternal salvation itself. And he is the author of the faith - the Gospel. However, Heb 12:1 speaks of 'running the race which is set before us' which refers to the Christian life after salvation.

The Peoples New Testament says the following.

The author and finisher of [our] faith. Not our faith, but the faith in the Greek. The Gospel, which rests upon faith, is meant rather than the individual faith of the saint. Jesus is its author and perfected it. He is the exemplar of all who live by faith. Hence we should look to him.
Hebrews 12 People's New Testament

Hebrews 12:2 'fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith (tes pisteos), who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.




3) Pistis is used for the measure of faith mentioned in Rom 12:3

Romans 12:3 'For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Obviously, this does not refer to personal saving faith. Paul is speaking to believers. Not to unbelievers. It is clear that not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ.

The measure of faith refers to the faith which would enable one to exercise spiritual gifts. Rom 12:4-8 shows that this is Paul's meaning. It is not the ordinary personal faith directed toward Jesus Christ which results in eternal salvation which is in view here, but rather the extraordinary faith, which was accompanied in the first century by supernatural gifts, that is meant. This faith came from God.
Ok, I'll rephrase this: everything we have been given, at birth, or during our lives, comes from God. You and I have nothing "of ourselves." If you think you have something that God didn't give you, you are just plain wrong. And full of pride.

Have you forgotten that God made each of us, and we are not all the same? I know you want everyone to be identical to you, robots in your doctrine, but life doesn't work that way. Without God's intervention, man cannot know anything. Especially regarding Jesus Christ. Period. Saul of Tarsus is a perfect example; I am another.

Peace,
brian
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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Mike555 -- You've done an impressive job of translating the Greek and various forms and tenses of the word 'Faith' -- However, do you really think that 'faith' is intended to require such an in-depth study to grasp it? (What then happens to those who come to Christ as a 'little child'?)

Scripture provides hundreds of examples of 'faith' --- and while we believers certainly exercise the 'faith' they have been given ... it is equally clear that Faith is: (1) A 'fruit of the Holy Spirit' - Gal. 5:22; and (2) also A 'Spiritual Gift' - 1 Cor. 12:4-11. Both of these are clearly 'gifts' of God that have their origin via His indwelling Holy Spirit ... and are not from man.

I question your conclusion from the Greek, that Eph 2:8 .... "Is not really saying that faith is a gift of God" ...("lest any man should boast ... AKA: Claim that God 'owes man, because of man's faith'). While your Greek is impressive, the scriptures were originally translated from Aramaic and Hebrew into Greek. Therefore, I'm not sure how rigid we can really be with Eph. 2:8 -- particularly in light of the clarifying clause. (Aren't we also told that "no man comes to Christ, unless the Father draws him"? --- again, clarifying the source of a 'believer's faith.')

Your reference to Rom. 10:17, "Faith comes (to us) by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ" seems to again make it very clear that the faith and the Word are both from God, not from man.

Additionally, we are told in Rom 1:18-22 that God has 'given' every being a knowledge of His eternal power and deity ... so that those who suppress the truth, are without excuse." This sounds to me like an 'inborn measure of faith' -- that we can either accept or reject, but, certainly not something that people conjure-up out of their own resources.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:12 PM
 
20,426 posts, read 15,786,814 times
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Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Mike555 -- You've done an impressive job of translating the Greek and various forms and tenses of the word 'Faith' -- However, do you really think that 'faith' is intended to require such an in-depth study to grasp it? (What then happens to those who come to Christ as a 'little child'?)

Scripture provides hundreds of examples of 'faith' --- and while we believers certainly exercise the 'faith' they have been given ... it is equally clear that Faith is: (1) A 'fruit of the Holy Spirit' - Gal. 5:22; and (2) also A 'Spiritual Gift' - 1 Cor. 12:4-11. Both of these are clearly 'gifts' of God that have their origin via His indwelling Holy Spirit ... and are not from man.

I question your conclusion from the Greek, that Eph 2:8 .... "Is not really saying that faith is a gift of God" ...("lest any man should boast ... AKA: Claim that God 'owes man, because of man's faith'). While your Greek is impressive, the scriptures were originally translated from Aramaic and Hebrew into Greek. Therefore, I'm not sure how rigid we can really be with Eph. 2:8 -- particularly in light of the clarifying clause. (Aren't we also told that "no man comes to Christ, unless the Father draws him"? --- again, clarifying the source of a 'believer's faith.')

Your reference to Rom. 10:17, "Faith comes (to us) by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ" seems to again make it very clear that the faith and the Word are both from God, not from man.

Additionally, we are told in Rom 1:18-22 that God has 'given' every being a knowledge of His eternal power and deity ... so that those who suppress the truth, are without excuse." This sounds to me like an 'inborn measure of faith' -- that we can either accept or reject, but, certainly not something that people conjure-up out of their own resources.
This wasn't written for a little child. It was written for adults who insist on maintaining that saving faith comes from God. The entire point of this thread is to distinquish between the different ways that faith is used in the Bible.

Faith is produced within the one who believes in response to information provided to him through the gospel message. Faith is not a force which is transmitted by God to the one who believes. Faith is simply a response of trust in Jesus Christ as a result of learning something about Him through the gospel.

Faith is non-meritorous. The one who believes takes no credit for believing in Christ. The merit is not in the faith, but is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. A faith response toward the Gospel message concerning Christ is the means by which the work of Christ on the Cross is appropriated by the one who believes, resulting in eternal salvation.

If you think that saving faith comes from God, then you must give yourself over to the heresy of Calvinism. It is clear that many do not have faith in Christ and will be eternally separated from God. If you maintain that saving faith comes from God, then you must conclude that God decides not to impart saving faith to some people and that they cannot be saved because God chose not to impart saving faith to them. Clearly that is not the case. It is God's desire that all men be saved.

God provides the gospel information so that man can understand the issue. Whether a person responds to the gospel message with a positive faith response or reacts to it negitively is strictly a matter of his own volition.

When the gospel is given to the unbeliever, God the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace, convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11).

After salvation, the object of the believers faith is Bible doctrine which is the means by which the believer advances spiritually. Matthew 4:4 '...It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.' Bible doctrine is the word of God and the mind of Christ.

In salvation, the object of your faith is Jesus Christ.

In the spiritual life after salvation, the object of your faith is what Jesus has to say to you as a believer. Therefore Bible doctrine. The more a believer learns about God through the study of the word of God, the greater his faith -his confidence in God becomes.

The gospel gives enough information concerning the issue of salvation in order for the unbeliever to be saved. After salvation, Bible doctrine (and the application of it to the circumstances of life) provides the information to carry the believer to spiritual maturity.

You are correct in that God has made Himself known through His creation. But that is a general revelation which leaves man without excuse. For this reason, every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. If he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.

Knowledge is not faith, but knowledge about Jesus Christ by means of the gospel assures the gospel hearer (if he believes it) that he can place his faith- his trust-his confidence in Christ.

Faith is the Greek word Pistis, and means to be persuaded. If the Gospel message persuades the gospel hearer that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, and persuades him concerning what He did on the cross, then he will trust in Christ. If he is not persuaded then he will not believe. The gospel hearer must decide if he believes what is being presented to him at gospel hearing. And again, it is God the Holy Spirit who convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of righteousness, and of judgment. But the unbeliever can resist that conviction. It is his choice.

And by the way, I am not a Greek expert. I simply research as necessary. Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages is a great help.


Are you a Calvinist?
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:15 PM
 
20,426 posts, read 15,786,814 times
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Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Ok, I'll rephrase this: everything we have been given, at birth, or during our lives, comes from God. You and I have nothing "of ourselves." If you think you have something that God didn't give you, you are just plain wrong. And full of pride.

Have you forgotten that God made each of us, and we are not all the same? I know you want everyone to be identical to you, robots in your doctrine, but life doesn't work that way. Without God's intervention, man cannot know anything. Especially regarding Jesus Christ. Period. Saul of Tarsus is a perfect example; I am another.

Peace,
brian
I would ask you to go back and read with comprehension what I wrote rather than reacting emotionally to what I wrote.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,144,343 times
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Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
I question your conclusion from the Greek, that Eph 2:8 .... "Is not really saying that faith is a gift of God" ...("lest any man should boast ... AKA: Claim that God 'owes man, because of man's faith'). While your Greek is impressive, the scriptures were originally translated from Aramaic and Hebrew into Greek. Therefore, I'm not sure how rigid we can really be with Eph. 2:8 -- particularly in light of the clarifying clause. (Aren't we also told that "no man comes to Christ, unless the Father draws him"? --- again, clarifying the source of a 'believer's faith.')

Your reference to Rom. 10:17, "Faith comes (to us) by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ" seems to again make it very clear that the faith and the Word are both from God, not from man.

Additionally, we are told in Rom 1:18-22 that God has 'given' every being a knowledge of His eternal power and deity ... so that those who suppress the truth, are without excuse." This sounds to me like an 'inborn measure of faith' -- that we can either accept or reject, but, certainly not something that people conjure-up out of their own resources.

A little deeper look at Pistis may clarify that.

Pistis does, indeed, mean to be convinced of the truth of something. But, it's a derivative of the word Peitho, which means to be persuaded by the evidence. The analogy would be as in a court of law, where the jury looks at the evidence presented and believes either the case of the prosecution or of the defense, based upon what's been revealed to them.

It's the same with Biblical faith. It is, truly, from God because He has given us all the evidence we need to believe on Him and on Jesus Christ. From the natural world to eyewitness accounts, He's presented enough evidence so that each person must chose to believe it or not. No man can truthfully say he never knew because a preponderance of the evidence points to the truth of Him and His Son. No, the evidence is not 100% conclusive because if it were, believing would not be an act of faith and that's now how God wants it.

As for God drawing us? Yes, He does, but He draws EVERY person, not just a select few. Every human being who has ever heard the Gospel must make a decision, based upon the evidence, of whether or not to believe it. And, the Spirit draws each human being to Salvation, but God's grace to us includes the right to reject that calling.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
A little deeper look at Pistis may clarify that.

Pistis does, indeed, mean to be convinced of the truth of something. But, it's a derivative of the word Peitho, which means to be persuaded by the evidence. The analogy would be as in a court of law, where the jury looks at the evidence presented and believes either the case of the prosecution or of the defense, based upon what's been revealed to them.

It's the same with Biblical faith. It is, truly, from God because He has given us all the evidence we need to believe on Him and on Jesus Christ. From the natural world to eyewitness accounts, He's presented enough evidence so that each person must chose to believe it or not. No man can truthfully say he never knew because a preponderance of the evidence points to the truth of Him and His Son. No, the evidence is not 100% conclusive because if it were, believing would not be an act of faith and that's now how God wants it.

As for God drawing us? Yes, He does, but He draws EVERY person, not just a select few. Every human being who has ever heard the Gospel must make a decision, based upon the evidence, of whether or not to believe it. And, the Spirit draws each human being to Salvation, but God's grace to us includes the right to reject that calling.
No. Saving faith is not from God, it is a response from you as a result of knowledge gained. God provides information about Christ through the gospel. As a result of that information, the hearer places his trust in Christ for salvation (if he does). Or he rejects the Gospel. This should not be a difficult concept to understand.

Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception. Everyone has faith in something. A child knows that he can trust his parents because he has learned that they are trustworthy.

A husband and wife trust each other because they know each other. Because of what they know about one another, each one knows that they can put their faith in the other.

Your parents didn't give you faith. They showed themselves to be deserving of your faith in them. The same with a husband and wife relationship.

It is no different with faith in Christ. God doesn't give you faith. He reveals Himself in the Gospel message, and if you are persuaded that the gospel message is true from your consideration of the information given to you, then you place your faith in Christ for salvation. It is YOUR faith. It comes from you in response to knowing something about Christ which was revealed through the Gospel. Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of righteousness, and of judgment. But that conviction can be resisted, or ignored and the gospel can be said 'no' to.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:16 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,729,022 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
For this reason, every person who reaches the point of God consciousness - the point where he is able to conceive of a supreme being, is held responsible by God for what he does with that recognition. If he is curious about God at that point then God will get the Gospel to him at some point before he dies so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ.
This is simply not scriptural. It appears to be a manmade doctrine to make people who believe God will torture people feel better about God.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:21 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
This is simply not scriptural. It appears to be a manmade doctrine to make people who believe God will torture people feel better about God.
Absolutely BHFT, there is nothing scriptural about what Mike said. God does the choosing, not man.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:27 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,729,022 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. Saving faith is not from God, it is a response from you as a result of knowledge gained. God provides information about Christ through the gospel. As a result of that information, the hearer places his trust in Christ for salvation (if he does). Or he rejects the Gospel. This should not be a difficult concept to understand.

Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception. Everyone has faith in something. A child knows that he can trust his parents because he has learned that they are trustworthy.
Where do you get your definitions of faith? Not from the bible, obviously. Faith is not a system. It it not response as a result of knowledge. The bible says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen." What do you hope for? That is what you have faith in. How do you know God's plan for mankind? You can't know other than by faith - evidence of things not seen.

My faith in the Holy Spirit, whose fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. My faith is in Love (God), 1 Corinthians 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.

This is my faith - the substance of things I hope for - the evidence of things I cannot see - the things I believe are truth.


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