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Old 01-25-2011, 09:10 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,596,755 times
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Exactly Thrill - we would have to ignore scripture in order to believe that man is in charge of his destiny.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say to him, What do you?

...and so on. I'm working out for a change and can't stop for long.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,305,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
E

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.
Hey Little Elmer,
I don't believe the above can be used to support whether Free Will is evident or not....yet what it does support is that God's predestined purpose, is the inheritance that those who put on Christ, will receive...eternal life.

Quote:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say to him, What do you?
Again...the above is not about man's free will, but that of God's will, in that what He intended, as in His victory over King Neb, was predestined, for His purpose. God is transcendent and immanent. You must remember, that God is outside of what we call time and space, yet He works within it, for purposes be it unknown, or even known to us, so in retrospect, yes, he foreknows everything, but that doesn't make Him malevolent, but benevolant. His actions within our time, are for His purpose and Glory, but our actions apart from Him, are for ours alone. With and in Him, our actions are moved by His presence, and sometimes they are moved apart from His presence, and because of that, most times if not all, end up falling short of His Glory, when we act alone, as it has no place in His kingdom, denying Him the Glory in that He intended for us, yet we decidedly moved against. This is called backsliding....covenant blessings, covenant curses.

And when I use the word "ours", "we" and "us,"...
I mean Christians...not all of mankind.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:42 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,859,315 times
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The way scripture teaches it is that:
  • God predestines believers in accordance with his pleasure and will Ephesians 1:5
However, God does not predestine unbelievers

-----------------------------------------------


The way scripture teaches it is that:
  • Romans 8:30
    And those he predestined, he also called;
  • Ephesians 1:4
    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
However...people don't choose God but have the free will to choose to reject God
  • Luke 10:16
    “...He who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
  • John 3:36
    "...Whoever whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
  • John 12:48
    "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."
  • Romans 2:8
    But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-25-2011 at 10:52 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:27 AM
 
912 posts, read 700,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I am currently studying intensely limited atonement vs unlimited atonement. While I cannot take one specific side (yet, if ever) I have learned that John 6:44 ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." severely limits the concept of free will in man in the sense that man cannot (probably because of his "total depravity"--the T in TULIP), of his own free will, choose to follow Christ. If the Holy Spirit does not draw him he is simply incapable of making that decision.

This simple Biblically-supported fact is well-supported with such verses as "the wind blows where it will" just as the HS travels where He will and draws whom He will, in conjunction with who the Father decided from the foundation of the universe who He would choose to draw to His Son. Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son..."
I'm sorry to say this. And I'm not trying to start a thread closing fight. I will not be back to this thread and am seriously considering abandonment from these topics............................................ ..................

I will show in the following how this works "in opinion"
As well...sometimes understanding is not all together agreeable.
.................................................. ...............................................

When an individual has an unfortunate personal upset or dramatic occurance...their self understanding is in view in a very profound manner.
Not unlike the flash of life experience often spoke of before death itself.

It is most difficult for the individual if ...at one time in their life , an introduction to the idea of God in Christianity ...to avoid interior review.

The rejection through life in my opinion of the basic innocence in a God loving faith.....is a rejection of the innocence in the essence of their being

Regardless of proclamation and assertions in outward expression in non-belief agnostic ect..."baloney" the individual believes in God ..however does not accept their life and consequently rejects the belief.

The outward and inward rejection is an .." immature challenge to fate including a self pity based overview of themselves"

Every single person who is introduced and understands the concept of God
believes it is true.

The atheist , agnostic ect are like missionaries in their adamant "need"
for repeated and repeated intellectual food for their rebellious position.

The food also is in the requirement of continued and repeated affirmation to their rejection ...why? because they know they are....Wrong.
and need to be fed The .."food" is also a continued consolation in dragging others into the gutter of ....non hope. Misery just loves misery.The self
proclaimed non believer is...in betrayal of self....a..lie. The lie represents the feeling they have in their soul with regards to their self perceived unjustly condemnation of their innocence in life. A lie for a lie. A challenge
to all that is.
When a youngster, disobeys for attention, the youngster does not reject the reality of the parent. You would think so though wouldn't you.

I could go on but whats the point..?

There is no such thing as an atheist ect......it is a lie...love your neighbor as yourself ....
I'm sorry I joined city data and will get back to lookin at the living stuff which is how i intially found this site. The emotions are too much too handle in reading all the posts...its like theres a crowd in my living room
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:55 AM
 
373 posts, read 312,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Free will is a concept the ancient Jews understood well. Pagan influence around 500 BC crept in by Hellenistic occupation, with the premise that free will is moot.

Free Will in Judaism 101 - My Jewish Learning
Halakha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Laws had to be followed, and by their actions they were rewarded for their worship.

On the Nature of Free Will

Study up people....you are supposed to be an inward Jew!
Good. Jews don't believe in Hell. They are UR buddies.
Heaven and Hell - Just Asked - The 'Ask The Rabbi' Service from GatewaysOnline.com
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:59 AM
 
373 posts, read 312,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Read the article. Free will is a reality but it is not free from any influence or cause. That is the false asumption of those who apply philosophical concepts to free will rather than understanding free will from a real world perspective.
Proverbs 16:9 NIV
New International Version
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:04 AM
 
373 posts, read 312,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The way scripture teaches it is that:
  • God predestines believers in accordance with his pleasure and will Ephesians 1:5
However, God does not predestine unbelievers
The believers are only believers because they are chosen as the elect. (note I'm not talking about Calvinism)


“Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.” – 2 Samuel 14:14
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:48 AM
 
10,267 posts, read 10,621,433 times
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What I find repugnant about this whole idea of God presenting the sinner with a choice and then man deciding on whether he wants salvation or not is that such a concept takes God totally out of the center of the act of salvation and relegating Him to a subservient position to man's whim to choose Jesus or not. Imagine God allowing man to place Him on the sidelines while he, of his own accord, determines his own fate!

Such a thought is so horrifying that....well, truthfully I am glad that God is my Pilot---that He literally whipped me into choosing Him. I thank Him every morning and night on my knees that I was not left to my own depraved devices to make a choice. What a disaster that would have been. I find nothing at all objectionable about allowing God to plan my life; in no way do I feel my free-will has been compromised. He can have my so-called "free will". It has gotten me into nothing but trouble my entire life until I turned it over to God and said to Him, "Lord, you take over the controls. I'm in the passenger seat and you fly my anywhere You choose." What a relief it is not having to be responsible for my own destiny!
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:25 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,859,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
The believers are only believers because they are chosen as the elect. (note I'm not talking about Calvinism)


“Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.” – 2 Samuel 14:14
That is what I was attempting to say about believers and Calvinism .

The problem is that logic concludes that since humans do reject God, then by default they should be able to accept...and scripture doesn't speak of accepting \ chosing in those terms.

Faith and salvation and the reward of heaven is totally 100% God's doing.

Rejecting faith resulting in damnation and the judgement of hell is totally 100% the unbelievers doing.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:36 AM
 
20,382 posts, read 15,757,862 times
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I will answer some of the preceding posts as I have time to. Maybe later today or tonight. It may have to wait beyond that.
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