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Old 01-26-2011, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
Good. Jews don't believe in Hell. They are UR buddies.
Heaven and Hell - Just Asked - The 'Ask The Rabbi' Service from GatewaysOnline.com
For Jews....yes! Not for everyone...and the writer of this article starts of the concept with The very foundation of the Jewish Religion is rooted in the concept of the World to Come and the Resurrection of the Dead.

The ROTD is a future event to futurists, be that it may, it is still a covenantal resurrection, dealing with only covenantal people. Jews believed that anyone outside of covenant, is simply, like an animal, with no soul, spirit, or life. I agree, there is no Hell, as a incorporeal place, and as a Preterist, that place has been destroyed, along with the wicked/apostate Jews in it. The New testament covers this concept quite extensively, a piece of work, the Jews, deny, yet was the revelation of the OT prophets, that left the concept of it, to be yet expanded on, as it was, by NT prophets.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:40 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Free will is a concept the ancient Jews understood well. Pagan influence around 500 BC crept in by Hellenistic occupation, with the premise that free will is moot.

Free Will in Judaism 101 - My Jewish Learning
Halakha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Laws had to be followed, and by their actions they were rewarded for their worship.

On the Nature of Free Will

Study up people....you are supposed to be an inward Jew!
You're right, the Jews believed in free will, not Jesus. It's the same problem that ETer's face today:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, `I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me;
Joh 10:26 but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep,

The reason given is that they were not one of Christ's sheep. One must first be born of the Spirit.

Decisional salvation theology is the hallmark of unbelief. A person either believes or not. You either believe that Jesus forgave your sins on the cross and that Jesus justified you by His blood, or you do not. These are all past tense events that occurred 2,000 years ago.

If you believe those events are true, you believe.

If you do not believe those events are true, you do not believe on Jesus or the Gospel.

If someone thinks they must first "make a decision", or that "making a free will decision" is what will save them, they do not believe on Jesus or the Gospel. They are yet in unbelief.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:49 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Mike . . . you are correct in making these distinctions. But you are not correct in believing that belief in God is a choice that falls within our free will. What we believe about God is what we believe about God . . . no choosing about it. Any appearance of choice is fraudulent . . . either you do or you don't and you are not the one who makes it so. We can choose to intellectually proclaim all sorts of beliefs . . . but what we ACTUALLY truly believe deep in our inner souls has absolutely nothing to do with that intellectual choice. So the issue of free will is a non-starter with regard to belief in God.When you can HONESTLY proclaim that you can believe something you absolutely do not believe currently simply by choosing to do so then you will prove your point. Otherwise stop this ridiculous nonsense about choosing to believe.
A lot of truth here... No one can choose to believe. The Gospel comes in the power of the Spirit with much assurance upon believers:

1Th 1:5 because our good news did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance, even as ye have known of what sort we became among you because of you,

Those who believe the Gospel have assurance when they hear the proclamation of the Gospel call them.

Unbelievers who need to "make a decision", do not.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
You're right, the Jews believed in free will, not Jesus. It's the same problem that ETer's face today:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, `I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me;
Joh 10:26 but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep,

The reason given is that they were not one of Christ's sheep. One must first be born of the Spirit.

Decisional salvation theology is the hallmark of unbelief. A person either believes or not. You either believe that Jesus forgave your sins on the cross and that Jesus justified you by His blood, or you do not. These are all past tense events that occurred 2,000 years ago.

If you believe those events are true, you believe.

If you do not believe those events are true, you do not believe on Jesus or the Gospel.

If someone thinks they must first "make a decision", or that "making a free will decision" is what will save them, they do not believe on Jesus or the Gospel. They are yet in unbelief.
Alabama,

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, youa re that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

A choice is demanded and thus the exercise of free will is needed.
We choose to present ourselves before sin or obedience.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' Ad let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

The invitation is extended to "whomever desires". The Lord will not force any to be saved, and will not turn away any who desire.

Acts 17:30 Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent...

God does not command what we are not able to do.
Thus, "all men everywhere" may freely choose to repent.

There are certainly other New Testament texts which demonstrate our ability to choose, to exercise free will, but these will suffice, for the time being.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Who is appointed to eternal life? Those who believe. It is not that those who are appointed will believe (which is Calvinism), but those who believe are appointed (exercise of free will).

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreoever whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The word "predestined" is confused at times, just as "appointed". Many believe predestination involves God's chosing one but not choosing another, but the Bible tells us that God is not a respecter of persons Acts 10:35. The Bible does not teach that some people are chosen, but others are not; rather, the Bible reveals a predestined place Ephesians 1:3-5; Galatians 3:27.

Romans 9:11-22 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older shall serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.' What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My powe in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

Just prior to the verse quoted above, Paul argued that the children of God are determined, not by fleshly seed, but by spiritual seed Romans 9:1-10. This is so for all, whether of the nation Israel or not. However, with regard to the selecting of a nation to be His people of the Old Covenant, we read, "...Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated..." In the text, Jacob represents Israel....Esau represents Edom. This took place, not as a result of man's will or work see Genesis 27:1-5, but God's choosing and mercy Genesis 25:23.

As we consider Pharaoh, he willed to keep the children of Israel captive, and worked to that end, but God's plan was different. Pharaoh, who set himself against the LORD was used to display the power of God in all the earth. How is it that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Simply by giving him a command that he would not obey. God did not violate Pharaoh's will.....Pharaoh violated God's will.

Verse 19-22 answers Jewish complaints against the LORD regarding their rejection and judgment by the LORD. If God wants to show His wrath and make His power known through judgment of the Jews, it is in His power to do so. Several times through the history of the Jews, He had done so, as they wandered in and out of sin. But it is no violation of man's free will for God to judge the nation.

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

How did God "choose" and "predestine" us? It is "in Him", that is, in Christ Jesus.
As I said earlier on Romans 8:29-30[/i], Galatians 3:27, reveals how we get "in Christ"....through obedient faith, and being baptized into Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice that the initial occurrence here is that these folks in question "...did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." This being their desire, God sends delusion upon them, allowing them to believe the lie which they have loved. God does not violate their free will in this.... they chose a lie over the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began Verse 10 reveals that Christ has "...brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..." It is not by our own works that we have been saved, but through our subjection to the LORD's will, and obedience to the gospel message. Our salvation is dependent upon us forsaking our own will and purpose, and submitting to the will and purpose of God. This is not contrary to free will. We are free to choose whether we will serve God or ourselves.

Jude 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.....Why were these men marked out for condemnation? Is it because God has simply rejected them and desires to destroy them? Or, is it because of their wicked works? The former is contrary to the desire of God 2 Peter 3:9. These mark themselves for condemnation because they walk in an ungodly manner. None of the texts listed stand contrary to free will. God has given each of us the ability to choose to serve Him or to reject Him. All are free to choose life or death. There is no contradiction. Jesus believed in free will. Blessings to you Alabama.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-26-2011 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:03 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,536 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Alabama,

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, youa re that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

A choice is demanded and thus the exercise of free will is needed.
We choose to present ourselves before sin or obedience.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' Ad let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

The invitation is extended to "whomever desires". The Lord will not force any to be saved, and will not turn away any who desire.

Acts 17:30 Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent...

God does not command what we are not able to do.
Thus, "all men everywhere" may freely choose to repent.

There are certainly other New Testament texts which demonstrate our ability to choose, to exercise free will, but these will suffice, for the time being.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Who is appointed to eternal life? Those who believe. It is not that those who are appointed will believe (which is Calvinism), but those who believe are appointed (exercise of free will).

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreoever whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The word "predestined" is confused at times, just as "appointed". Many believe predestination involves God's chosing one but not choosing another, but the Bible tells us that God is not a respecter of persons Acts 10:35. The Bible does not teach that some people are chosen, but others are not; rather, the Bible reveals a predestined place Ephesians 1:3-5; Galatians 3:27.

Romans 9:11-22 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older shall serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.' What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My powe in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

Just prior to the portion of text which is quoted above, Paul argued that the children of God are determined, not by fleshly seed, but by spiritual seed Romans 9:1-10. This is so for all, whether of the nation Israel or not. However, with regard to the selecting of a nation to be His people of the Old Covenant, we read, "...Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated..." In the text, Jacob represents Israel; Esau represents Edom. This took place, not as a result of man's will or work see Genesis 27:1-5, but God's choosing and mercy Genesis 25:23.

As we consider Pharaoh, he willed to keep the children of Israel captive, and worked to that end, but God's plan was different. Pharaoh, who set himself against the LORD was used to display the power of God in all the earth. How is it that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Simply by giving him a command that he would not obey. God did not violate Pharaoh's will; Pharaoh violated God's will.

Verse 19-22 answers Jewish complaints against the LORD regarding their rejection and judgment by the LORD. If God wants to show His wrath and make His power known through judgment of the Jews, it is in His power to do so. Several times through the history of the Jews, He had done so, as they wandered in and out of sin. But it is no violation of man's free will for God to judge the nation.

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

How did God "choose" and "predestine" us? It is "in Him", that is, in Christ Jesus. As noted earlier in the notes on Romans 8:29-30, Galatians 3:27 reveals how we get "in Christ"....through obedient faith, and being baptized into Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice that the initial occurrence here is that these folks in question "...did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." This being their desire, God sends delusion upon them, allowing them to believe the lie which they have loved. God does not violate their free will in this.... they chose a lie over the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Verse 10 reveals that Christ has "...brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..." It is not by our own works that we have been saved, but through our subjection to the LORD's will, and obedience to the gospel message. Our salvation is dependent upon us forsaking our own will and purpose, and submitting to the will and purpose of God. This is not contrary to free will. We are free to choose whether we will serve God or ourselves.

Jude 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why were these men marked out for condemnation? Is it because God has simply rejected them and desires to destroy them? Or, is it because of their wicked works? The former is contrary to the desire of God 2 Peter 3:9. These mark themselves for condemnation because they walk in an ungodly manner.

None of the texts listed stand contrary to free will. God has given each of us the ability to choose to serve Him or to reject Him. All are free to choose life or death. There is no contradiction. Blessings to you Alabama,.
Without going through each one of your arguments (I've heard them all), I'll put it here as simply as possible:

Everyone who is born of the Spirit believes. Those who are not born of the Spirit do not believe. There is NO deciding or choosing to believe on Christ, or to come to Christ, by the natural man. The natural man is dead to God and the things of the Spirit. Further, there is no deciding by man as to when he'll will be regenerated by the Spirit. Consequently, spiritual life (with it's fruit being faith) is either present or it is not.

If born of the Spirit, faith is present.
If not born of the Spirit, faith is absent.

This idea of decisional regeneration theology is not scriptural. You know this as well as I do.
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Without going through each one of your arguments (I've heard them all), I'll put it here as simply as possible:

Everyone who is born of the Spirit believes. Those who are not born of the Spirit do not believe. There is NO deciding or choosing to believe on Christ, or to come to Christ, by the natural man. The natural man is dead to God and the things of the Spirit. Further, there is no deciding by man as to when he'll will be regenerated by the Spirit. Consequently, spiritual life (with it's fruit being faith) is either present or it is not.

If born of the Spirit, faith is present.
If not born of the Spirit, faith is absent.

This idea of decisional regeneration theology is not scriptural. You know this as well as I do.
I have always understood that you are born of spirit because of belief in John 3, not the other way around Alabama....and I was brought up Calvinist!
This has nothing to do with man being in control of his salvation. I just explained that exegetically....it is man's submission to God's will that he is saved. God gives the gift of salvation for his faith...this is called a relationship...like a husband and wife, they submit to each other to make things work for their marriage. We believe, God provides the inheritance for that. This is soteriology 101.
I can expand much more....if you didn't want to debate it, why present your case inconsistently?
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,568,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Without going through each one of your arguments (I've heard them all), I'll put it here as simply as possible:

Everyone who is born of the Spirit believes. Those who are not born of the Spirit do not believe. There is NO deciding or choosing to believe on Christ, or to come to Christ, by the natural man. The natural man is dead to God and the things of the Spirit. Further, there is no deciding by man as to when he'll will be regenerated by the Spirit. Consequently, spiritual life (with it's fruit being faith) is either present or it is not.

If born of the Spirit, faith is present.
If not born of the Spirit, faith is absent.

This idea of decisional regeneration theology is not scriptural. You know this as well as I do.
Of course. It seems quite apparent from logic alone that the dead do not have the power to regenerate themselves. We are completely dependent on God for salvation from spiritual death. I can recall the utter feeling of helplessness when I realized I could do nothing to deliver myself from the darkness that held me captive. With fear and trembling and much angst I waited for my deliverance.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,568,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
A lot of truth here... No one can choose to believe. The Gospel comes in the power of the Spirit with much assurance upon believers:

1Th 1:5 because our good news did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance, even as ye have known of what sort we became among you because of you,

Those who believe the Gospel have assurance when they hear the proclamation of the Gospel call them.

Unbelievers who need to "make a decision", do not.
And likewise, one can spend years without assurance while waiting on God (I did) and it was not pleasant, but I could not deliver myself from the Kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light - it was a sovereign act of God (in power) that did it. Because of my experience, I have no doubt about the sovereignty of God in all things.
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:33 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,536 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I have always understood that you are born of spirit because of belief in John 3, not the other way around Alabama....and I was brought up Calvinist!
This has nothing to do with man being in control of his salvation. I just explained that exegetically....it is man's submission to God's will that he is saved. God gives the gift of salvation for his faith...this is called a relationship...like a husband and wife, they submit to each other to make things work for their marriage. We believe, God provides the inheritance for that. This is soteriology 101.
I can expand much more....if you didn't want to debate it, why present your case inconsistently?
Apparently you missed Chapter 10, Article 2, in Sunday School. The WCF is explicit regarding the process of regeneration:

Chapter X

To quote the confession: Man is "altogether passive therein".

Anyway, I'm on my lunch hour. Need to get going. Bye!
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,568,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Apparently you missed Chapter 10, Article 2, in Sunday School. The WCF is explicit regarding the process of regeneration:

Chapter X

To quote the confession: Man is "altogether passive therein".

Anyway, I'm on my lunch hour. Need to get going. Bye!
I disagree with the part of Chapter X that says God has not determined to save all! Many scriptures dispute this! Each will be saved in God's own order - and God is the one who determines the order of it all.
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