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Old 01-26-2011, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Apparently you missed Chapter 10, Article 2, in Sunday School. The WCF is explicit regarding the process of regeneration:

Chapter X

To quote the confession: Man is "altogether passive therein".

Anyway, I'm on my lunch hour. Need to get going. Bye!
I am very familliar with chapter 10 of the WCF, but like I provided exegetical support on this very concept and how it is misunderstood by reformers such as yourself,

This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it

Faith is not embracing this call...it is because of faith that this call is consummated on man's embrace of it, by the gift of salvation, an inheritance only one to give by Himself. Christ said:

Jesus knew at once that power had gone out from him.
“Who touched my clothes?” 31 His disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing against you and you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 But he looked around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, with fear and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”

Her faith brought out the power in Jesus to heal her.
Have a good day at work and blessings...always a pleasure to engage with you, no matter how sporadic it may be at times.

Summer's coming up, got any Cuban cigars left?
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:49 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,225 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, you should understand that man certainly has free will. The purpose of this post is simply to provide the following link to a paper which distinguishes between the Philosophical grounds upon which the God given free will of man is dismissed by those who deny its existence, and a real world understanding of man's free will. What the Bible says about man's free will and what those who approach the subject of free will from a philosophical standpoint think about it are two entirely different things. It is a given that those who deny man's free will shall most likely continue to do so, but...... hope springs eternal. Therefore, without any further adieu, http://god-defined.com/philosophy/FreeWill.pdf


I am glad you said hope springs eternal, since there is always hope for everyone.

While we do disagree on many things, I believe that mans will has a freedom and the bible defines the nature of what it is. When I get time I will read the article and perhaps offer some thoughts about it if I am led.
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Old 01-26-2011, 01:18 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,546,727 times
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Quote:
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
I think the ordering of the verbs, appointed and believed is critical here, unless I am misunderstanding the text.

First came the appointed by God to eternal life i.e. God appointed them to eternal life from the foundation of the world. Afterwards, it was this appointing to eternal life by God that enabled them to believe, otherwise the verse would have read, "And as many as believed God appointed them to eternal life".
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I think the ordering of the verbs, appointed and believed is critical here, unless I am misunderstanding the text.

First came the appointed by God to eternal life i.e. God appointed them to eternal life from the foundation of the world. Afterwards, it was this appointing to eternal life by God that enabled them to believe, otherwise the verse would have read, "And as many as believed God appointed them to eternal life".
thrillobyte,

It is the other way around. God appointed His people to eternal life. They got it because they believed. Blessings.
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:48 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Acts 17:30 Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent...

God does not command what we are not able to do.
Thus, "all men everywhere" may freely choose to repent.
The definition of command:
- to issue an order or orders
- to be in charge; have authority
- to occupy a dominating position

IMO, if God commands something, it will happen regardless of someone's choice. He is pretty good at issuing orders, being in charge, etc. Take a look at creation. So, all men everywhere will repent, and there's no deadline for this repentance mentioned.

Also read the next verse:

31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

All will repent. He gave assurance to all. But, yes, we will all be judged and will reap what we sow.
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Old 01-26-2011, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
The definition of command:
- to issue an order or orders
- to be in charge; have authority
- to occupy a dominating position

IMO, if God commands something, it will happen regardless of someone's choice. He is pretty good at issuing orders, being in charge, etc. Take a look at creation. So, all men everywhere will repent, and there's no deadline for this repentance mentioned.

Also read the next verse:

31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

All will repent. He gave assurance to all. But, yes, we will all be judged and will reap what we sow.
You define creation...liberally.
The context of creation, or kitsis, is covenant creation.
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Old 01-26-2011, 04:32 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,546,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
thrillobyte,

It is the other way around. God appointed His people to eternal life. They got it because they believed. Blessings.
Oh, okay. that one is a brain-teaser for me-- sort of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" .
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:53 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You define creation...liberally.
The context of creation, or kitsis, is covenant creation.
I didn't define "creation" in my post. I defined "command." Would you like to respond to my point that when God commands something, it's going to happen?
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:53 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,921 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I am very familliar with chapter 10 of the WCF, but like I provided exegetical support on this very concept and how it is misunderstood by reformers such as yourself,

This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it

Faith is not embracing this call...it is because of faith that this call is consummated on man's embrace of it, by the gift of salvation, an inheritance only one to give by Himself. Christ said:

Jesus knew at once that power had gone out from him.
“Who touched my clothes?” 31 His disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing against you and you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 But he looked around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, with fear and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”

Her faith brought out the power in Jesus to heal her.
Have a good day at work and blessings...always a pleasure to engage with you, no matter how sporadic it may be at times.

Summer's coming up, got any Cuban cigars left?
The cigars are seasoning in the Humidor my friend, waiting my return...

BTW...Here is an excellent cigar box constructed of Spanish Cedar, at an excellent price:

Cuban Original Humidor | Overstock.com

The richness of a fine cigar...while contemplating the glory of the Gospel...magnificent....

Regarding Irresistible grace (the i in T-u-l-i-p). This is one of the tenets of our reformed theology. You, being a good Presbyterian, know this as well as I.

Here, lets look at the WCF confession, Chapters 9 and 10:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter IX - Of Free-Will


1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

Chapter X - Of Effectual Calling

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Where I differ with the WCF is concerning the limits placed upon the atonement (I believe all sinners are redeemed by Christ, and all will be, at some point in time, regenerated by the Spirit, rather than just some sinners, and this is also why I'm UR) but that topic belongs in another thread .

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-26-2011 at 10:38 PM.. Reason: sp
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:22 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 453,717 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I think the ordering of the verbs, appointed and believed is critical here, unless I am misunderstanding the text.

First came the appointed by God to eternal life i.e. God appointed them to eternal life from the foundation of the world. Afterwards, it was this appointing to eternal life by God that enabled them to believe, otherwise the verse would have read, "And as many as believed God appointed them to eternal life".
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
thrillobyte,

It is the other way around. God appointed His people to eternal life. They got it because they believed. Blessings.
The context of this seems to be about the Jews .... vs ..... the gentiles
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Act 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting {aionios} life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal {aionios} life believed.
Act 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
Act 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
Act 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

To me this all seems to be mixed up with the Jews who continue to be disobedient and not believing Jesus about what was foretold in the OT about the destruction that was prophecied and happened in 70AD the aionion life mentioned seems to me about the nation not individual people
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