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Old 01-26-2011, 10:40 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
I'm not sure about that Sparrow. If there are really goats and sheep you are right.
But if it's an translation error then then it means young and old. We can't be young and old at the same time.
Hey man, I'm old but I'm young at heart... lol...

I do see what you are saying with the possible translation error, though. And sorry I think I derailed your thread a tiny bit, but I was responding to what Finn said.

That's a pretty interesting thing you've pointed out with the sheep and goats.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Just like good fish and bad fish, the angels will separate the good from the bad and throw the bad ones in the fire. There are many parables about this separation of good from the bad.
That's true Finn. But surely you understand that there is both good and bad in everyone that must be severed somehow. Only the Holy Spirit can do that for each one.

I found these thoughts with scriptures that were popping into my head as I did a search when I thought of the picture of Jesus Christ in Revelation (even Apostle John fell at his feet as though dead, remember?) Do you believe God is done separating your wheat from your chaff? Have we already put on perfection and immortality, or is it a process that involves a certain amount of pain and death?

Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Isaiah 6:16
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

Revelation 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Is the flaming sword that guards the Garden of Eden, the same as the sword that issues from the mouth of Jesus? Is the word of God "sharper than a two edged sword" or is the flaming sword a symbol for the word of God, guarding the way to the Tree of Life? What does it mean that it is "dividing asunder of soul and spirit" and is a "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart?" Is it also a symbol for the Atoning Powers of the Christ? Are the references to death by the sword in the Old and New Testaments somehow related? Is death meant to be, by way of the flaming sword--the Atonement of Jesus the Christ, divide our spirits; to separate the corruptible from the incorruptible?

Wow, I was thinking these same thoughts, and even trying to recall these very scriptures (though I only just woke up from a very deep sleep). Yet I could not have said it better.

Source: http://everything2.com/title/Flaming+Sword
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
That's true Finn. But surely you understand that there is both good and bad in everyone that must be severed somehow. Only the Holy Spirit can do that for each one.
Surely you understand, that the Bible doesn't say that bad parts of the fish are torn out and the good parts are left in, or that each piece of wheat is cleaned of tares. It says the good fish (as one whole individual fish) are accepted, and the bad fish (as whole) are thrown into the fire. There are bad fish, and good fish and they are separated. 1 fish = one person, 2 fish = 2 persons. There are wheat and tares and they represent different people.

The bad parts are removed at the time of salvation, but these parables are about judgment. It talks about ALL people being hauled in at the same time as fish (see revelation when all people stand judgment), and then separated at judgment and the bad fish are burned. And it talks about the harvest, when everything is cut down at the same time and the wheat separated from the tares, and the tares are burned.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,900,524 times
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The old man is done away with but the new man is saved, I see this as a reference to being born again. Anyone not born again is in danger of judgement and only the blood of Christ can save.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:40 AM
 
373 posts, read 310,554 times
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Finn: Judgement leads to grace.
Sorry for the bad formatting
-------------
Summary
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love

-------------
Judgment = Grace = Chastisement
1 Corinthians 11:32 and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened .... => We are judged by being chastened.
Titus 2:11-12 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that .... => Teaching is the grace of God.
Revelation 20:10 .... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Judged ̃ Chastened ̃ Teaching ̃ Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love

Strong definitions
Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning:
to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning:
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning:
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by WhiteWings; 01-26-2011 at 11:53 AM..
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Surely you understand, that the Bible doesn't say that bad parts of the fish are torn out and the good parts are left in, or that each piece of wheat is cleaned of tares. It says the good fish (as one whole individual fish) are accepted, and the bad fish (as whole) are thrown into the fire. There are bad fish, and good fish and they are separated. 1 fish = one person, 2 fish = 2 persons. There are wheat and tares and they represent different people.

The bad parts are removed at the time of salvation, but these parables are about judgment. It talks about ALL people being hauled in at the same time as fish (see revelation when all people stand judgment), and then separated at judgment and the bad fish are burned. And it talks about the harvest, when everything is cut down at the same time and the wheat separated from the tares, and the tares are burned.
Again, I ask, is God done with you? Are you perfected already? Do you not believe in the process of sanctification?
What is the sin that so easily besets us? Is that speaking of unbelievers? The NT is chock full of preaching and teaching about the snare of sin for the believer. In fact, the scriptures teach that those who have passed over will not be perfected apart from us. Are you interested in an honest discussion of these things. Or are you only interested in digging in your heels and claiming to be right about everything already (unteachable)? I say this with deepest sincerity - not to make you angry, but to try to get you to feel free to open your mind.

Heartsong
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:01 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Oh yippee .......... if one doesn't agree with it, use the good old "translation error" excuse.

So many different ways God attempts to get it across that there is a separation between the two groups with two very different outcomes.
Psalm 1:5
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

Psalm 7:9
O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

Proverbs 3:33
The LORD’s curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous.

Proverbs 10:3
The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry but he thwarts the craving of the wicked.

Proverbs 10:7
The memory of the righteous will be a blessing, but the name of the wicked will rot.

Proverbs 10:29
The way of the LORD is a refuge for the righteous, but it is the ruin of those who do evil.

Proverbs 15:9
The LORD detests the way of the wicked but he loves those who pursue righteousness.

Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Proverbs 29:27
The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright.

Malachi 3:18
And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

Matthew 25:46
“Then they [the wicked] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\


Malachi 3:18
And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

Malachi 3:18 will happen. It occurs when Matthew 13:49 comes to be.
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,568,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
The old man is done away with but the new man is saved, I see this as a reference to being born again. Anyone not born again is in danger of judgement and only the blood of Christ can save.
Robin,

Sanctification is a process. One can be born again and if they stop progressing, they will not grow up into the full stature of Christ. This is especially so among those who cannot move beyond the elemental principles of forgiveness and repentance. Those are "first things" (milk). There is much more than that, however.


Ephesians 3: 14-16 For this reason, I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man;

17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

18-19 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

20-21 Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Ephesians 3:14-21).
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Again, I ask, is God done with you? Are you perfected already? Do you not believe in the process of sanctification?
What is the sin that so easily besets us? Is that speaking of unbelievers? The NT is chock full of preaching and teaching about the snare of sin for the believer. In fact, the scriptures teach that those who have passed over will not be perfected apart from us. Are you interested in an honest discussion of these things. Or are you only interested in digging in your heels and claiming to be right about everything already (unteachable)? I say this with deepest sincerity - not to make you angry, but to try to get you to feel free to open your mind.

Heartsong
In this life? No, He is not done with me in this life, but those parables are about judgment not about this life, and believers will not be punished. Does that answer your question?
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Oh yippee .......... if one doesn't agree with it, use the good old "translation error" excuse.

So many different ways God attempts to get it across that there is a separation between the two groups with two very different outcomes.
Since God designed humans, He knows people will believe if something is repeated to them enough times. The message of salvation through faith is repeated some 200 times, so that there would be no mistaking the message. Also, the message of separating the good from the bad, and judgment of the wicked is repeated so many times that there is no room for misunderstanding.
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