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Old 03-21-2013, 04:18 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
@ Zur, could you agree with this timetable?

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@ Richard1965

the Latin word for "week" is (h)ebdomada just as in Greek, it occurs in the Vulgate in the OT, but nowhere in the NT.

I'm a bit wondering about the Vulgate, if Jerome understood "mia ton sabaton" as "first day of the week" why didn't he render it "primus dies hebdomada" or something like that?

On the other hand, how could the Latin speaking church claim that Christ was ressurected on the first day of the week, when the Latin bible said otherwise; or was it actually a common Jewish idiom that both the Greek and Latin speaking church understood correctly, as first day of the week?
Septimana...
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:43 AM
Zur
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
@ Zur, could you agree with this timetable?

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@ Richard1965

the Latin word for "week" is (h)ebdomada just as in Greek, it occurs in the Vulgate in the OT, but nowhere in the NT.

I'm a bit wondering about the Vulgate, if Jerome understood "mia ton sabaton" as "first day of the week" why didn't he render it "primus dies hebdomada" or something like that?

On the other hand, how could the Latin speaking church claim that Christ was ressurected on the first day of the week, when the Latin bible said otherwise; or was it actually a common Jewish idiom that both the Greek and Latin speaking church understood correctly, as first day of the week?
Shalom!
Sven I red this Website. The problem with Luther is, that he believed in the resurrection on Sunday. Every one translates according to his faith. It does not matter, to translate "week" with "sabbater", the result is the same. The deception begins with "after Sabbath", which is interpreted as Sunday morning, the Greek word translated "at dawn" supports it. Luther says in the morning which is an interpretation and not a translation. The word "dawn" is related to the end of the Sabbaths (plural), which we can all agree stands for the weekly Sabbath. The KJV and others translate end and there is a fixed time in it: Saturday twilight after sunset, when 3 stars are to be seen! Then the new day or week or what ever is choosen draws on , dawns or begins (Luke 23:54) Here is the mistake of all translations, where they use the word dawn instead of drew on as in Luke 23:54. There is a 12 hour day in the Jewish Calendar, that begins in the morning, but not after Sabbath or Mozi Sabbath as we say in Hebrew, that is Sabbath eve and is after sunset and can go till midnight. But here in Mat 28:1 it is a fixed time as I said, because the new day is evening and morning, day one (Gen 1:5) the day is counted from eve to eve (Lev 23:32), that means it is the dawn in the evening and not in the morning. That there is no word for dawn in the evening for a new day in Greek I think? Therefore the word "dawn" should not be used here. But as I said, every one that believes in a Sunday resurrection will translate in that direction. If I would translate Mat 28:1: In the end of the Sabbaths, when the first (one) of the Sabbaths (weeks) draw on, M. M.... The word "week" is not in the Greek, it is plural and I relate it more to Lev23:15. I know the interpretation for first of the Sabbath, second etc. but I do not like it because it is misleading. You will find problems to reconcile scripture with my interpretations, but I think I have solved them. We always have to keep in mind that the RCC says openly that they have changed the word of God, and that they have the authority to do so and because her daughters follow her, it is proof that they are the Church in authority. That all this is built on fraud and deception is not easy to proof, they have done a good job over the years. I keep the Sabbath, but not as the Pharisees. I believe we can in the new covenant God worship every day. Who worships a day is an idolater, if Sabbath or Sunday, it does not matter. My concern is to resurrect the Resurrection day on Passover, which is buried by the Roman Church and replaced by a pagan feast, that is a lie and does not honor the Lord at all. The true apostolic tradition was to celebrate the 17th of Nisan in the Passover week (Church of Minor Asia). Nowadays the massianic Jews and some Christians remember the recurrection on the Seder eve (15th of Nisan), but this is actually the Passover, the death of our Lord. THe Resurrection Paul says is important, because without resurrection our faith is vain and we are still in our sins. I think this day should be a joyful day to celebrate, but I have expirienced that the devil does not like it.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Shalom Zur,

I still have problems to understand which day it actually was, according to the timetable

1st day: Jesus was crucified on 14th Abib (=Nissan?), Wednesday AD 34 (preperation day for great Sabbath), He was buried before sunset

1st night: Wednesday to Thursday

2nd day: Thursday (great Sabbath, feast of unleavened bread (?) -> Leviticus 23; Matthew 27:62-64)

2nd night: Thursday to Friday

3rd day: Friday (preperation day for the weekly Sabbath, the women bought their materials on this day)

3rd night: Friday to Saturday (17th Abib), Jesus revives in this night.

So Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)

Jesus revived after 3 days (in the 3rd night), on a weekly Sabbath (the Sabbath begins Friday night, right?) (Mark 8:31)

Jesus revived at the 3rd calendary day (the 17th Abib) (Luke 9:22) - but wouldn't it be the 4th day then, when Jesus was killed and buried on the 14th Abib? Or should we not count the day of His death and burial, it would be the third day then from the happening of Matthew 27,62:

62 Now the next day [15th Abib], that followed the day of the preparation [14th Abib, the Day Jesus died and was buried], the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day [the 17th Abib; counted from 15th Abib as first day], lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

In the morning of the 17th Abib (Saturday/Sabbath) the women made a Sabbath day's yourney to the tomb and found it empty.

What do you think?

Last edited by svenM; 03-22-2013 at 07:17 AM..
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Shalom Zur,

I still have problems to understand which day it actually was, according to the timetable

1st day: Jesus was crucified on 14th Abib (=Nissan?), Wednesday AD 34, He was buried before sunset

1st night: Wednesday to Thursday

2nd day: Thursday (great Sabbath, feast of unleavened bread (?) -> Leviticus 23; Matthew 27:62-64)

2nd night: Thursday to Friday

3rd day: Friday

3rd night: Friday to Saturday (17th Abib), Jesus revives in this night.

So Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)

Jesus revived after 3 days (in the 3rd night), on a weekly Sabbath (the Sabbath begins Friday night, right?) (Mark 8:31)

Jesus revived at the 3rd calendary day (the 17th Abib) (Luke 9:22) - but wouldn't it be the 4th day then, when Jesus was killed and buried on the 14th Abib? Or should we not count the day of His death and burial, it would be the third day then from the happening of Matthew 27,62:

62 Now the next day [15th Abib], that followed the day of the preparation [14th Abib, the Day Jesus died and was buried], the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day [the 17th Abib; counted from 15th Abib as first day], lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

In the morning of the 17th Abib (Saturday/Sabbath) the women made a Sabbath day's yourney to the tomb and found it empty.

What do you think?
I see your agruement, but how can you justify this of him rising at 3pm in the afternoon on a Saturday, if the Romans had a guard at the tomb. THis would have been clearly visible in broad daylight.

Plus just about all writing from the 1rst century believers Barnabas and many of the 1rst century believers account for a resurrection on the 1rst day.

Its not until 1800 yrs later that we come along after all the translations and transliterations of the scriptures that we think we have the best account of what happened...this is not directed at you, but the many arguments that everyone thinks their version of what happened is the most accurate rather than just trust the 1rst century believers on their account since it happen in their lifetime.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
I see your agruement, but how can you justify this of him rising at 3pm in the afternoon on a Saturday, if the Romans had a guard at the tomb. THis would have been clearly visible in broad daylight.
Lets say a Jewish day is from 6pm (18:00) till 6pm (from evening to morning), the first half of the day would be from 6pm to 6am (06:00), the other half from 6am (06:00) to 6pm (18:00).

According to the timetable in this German link, let's say Jesus would have been ressurected between 6pm and 6am, the first half of the weekly Sabbath (modern: Friday night e.g. 11pm Friday, or early Saturday morning, e.g. 3am), the women would have come to his empty tomb, early on the Sabbath, let's say already in the second half of it, at 7am (Saturday morning).

I also think it is more likely that Jesus' ressurection happened at night.

Maybe I have understood the author of that timetable wrong when I said calendary days, 14th to 17th Nissan would rather be 4 days, but maybe he meant days in the sense of 24 hours, then Jesus would have been dead for full two days, 48 hours, and lets say further 12 hours, so He would have risen after 2 and a half days, which is on the third day.

Concerning Barnabas and early Christians, I do not give so much value to tradition and extra biblical sources.

Last edited by svenM; 03-22-2013 at 08:13 AM..
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Lets say a Jewish day is from 6pm (18:00) till 6pm (from evening to morning), the first half of the day would be from 6pm to 6am (06:00), the other half from 6am (06:00) to 6pm (18:00).

According to the timetable in this German link, let's say Jesus would have been ressurected between 6pm and 6am, the first half of the weekly Sabbath (modern: Friday night e.g. 11pm Friday, or early Saturday morning, e.g. 3am), the women would have come to his empty tomb, early on the Sabbath, let's say already in the second half of it, at 7am (Saturday morning).

I also think it is more likely that Jesus' ressurection happened at night.

Maybe I have understood the author of that timetable wrong when I said calendary days, 14th to 17th Nissan would rather be 4 days, but maybe he meant days in the sense of 24 hours, then Jesus would have been dead for full two days, 48 hours, and lets say further 12 hours, so He would have risen after 2 and a half days, which is on the third day.

Concerning Barnabas and early Christians, I do not give so much value to tradition and extra biblical sources.
I know ive heard as well Jewish custom was, someone had to be dead 3 full days to be considered dead. SO Fri form 3pm to Sunday morning in 36hrs tops, so i still dont rule out Wed either. The rising at Dawn on Sunday isnt supported anywhere, so ive ruled that out.

As for extra biblical sources, i dont exactly rule them out as the bible is just a bunch of writings that man kind put together to make the bible we have. Stuff has been added and taken away from scripture, so we are pretty much going my faith that the folks at council of Nicaea picked the right stiff to go in the bible.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Germany
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I think God preserved the authentic Canon.

Quote:
I know ive heard as well Jewish custom was, someone had to be dead 3 full days to be considered dead.
What do you mean by three full days?

Quote:
SO Fri form 3pm to Sunday morning in 36hrs tops
1st day: Friday
1st night: Friday/Saturday
2nd day Saturday
2nd night Saturday/Sunday -> ressurection

Jesus said three days and three nights, from Friday noon to Sunday morning are 2 days and 2 nights, be it three days if we count Sunday morning as a third day, but the third night is missing.

When Jesus said three days and three nights this must mean three days (meaning day not in the sense of 24 hours but day in the sense when it's bright and not night) and three nights; it counts as day or night, when the day/night has started I have read, it needn't be a whole day/night. But from Friday noon to Sunday morning, the third night is missing in any case.

Three days and nights must mean at least two complete days and nights and one started day/night or possibly one complete day/night and two started days/nights.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:49 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 622,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Shalom Zur,

I still have problems to understand which day it actually was, according to the timetable

1st day: Jesus was crucified on 14th Abib (=Nissan?), Wednesday AD 34 (preperation day for great Sabbath), He was buried before sunset

1st night: Wednesday to Thursday

2nd day: Thursday (great Sabbath, feast of unleavened bread (?) -> Leviticus 23; Matthew 27:62-64)

2nd night: Thursday to Friday

3rd day: Friday (preperation day for the weekly Sabbath, the women bought their materials on this day)

3rd night: Friday to Saturday (17th Abib), Jesus revives in this night.

So Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)

Jesus revived after 3 days (in the 3rd night), on a weekly Sabbath (the Sabbath begins Friday night, right?) (Mark 8:31)

Jesus revived at the 3rd calendary day (the 17th Abib) (Luke 9:22) - but wouldn't it be the 4th day then, when Jesus was killed and buried on the 14th Abib? Or should we not count the day of His death and burial, it would be the third day then from the happening of Matthew 27,62:

62 Now the next day [15th Abib], that followed the day of the preparation [14th Abib, the Day Jesus died and was buried], the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day [the 17th Abib; counted from 15th Abib as first day], lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

In the morning of the 17th Abib (Saturday/Sabbath) the women made a Sabbath day's yourney to the tomb and found it empty.

What do you think?
Shalom!
Abib is the same as Nisan, totay it is called on the calendar Nisan.
I agree Jesus dead Wednesday the 14th Nisan about 3pm (from 12 -3 their was darkness) when He gave up His Ghost. I think it was the year 31 or 32, but that is really not important and almost impossible to calculate. I counted the time from Wednesday 3pm to Saturday 3pm as 72 hours, together it makes 3 full days and 3 full nights (exclusive reckoning), not counting half days as full.
From Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset was the annual Sabbath, the 15th of Nisan.
Friday the women bought the spices and prepared them and rested the weekly Sabbath.
You say Jesus rose from the dead Saturday night, that would be Friday sunset till Sabbath morning, if I understand you right. I think this is inclusive reckoning. This could be right, because no one has witnessed his resurrection. We both agree, that Jesus did not rose on Sunday, but on Sabbath, the 17th of Nisan. Our difference is that you count inclusive and I exclusive. My point is, that the day is not important,( only for the Sunday people), but the date. So as we celebrate our birthday, we should celebrate the Resurrection day on the 17th of Nisan regardless on what day (this year on Thursday 28th of March). So did the Church in Minor Asia (Polycarp), who rejected the tradition of Rome (Easter Sunday), and so should we stand for the truth.
In the end of the Sabbath (KJV), Saturday sunset, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary visited the tomb, the stone was rolled away. Both of them flee,I think they did not even look into the tomb (I know the scribture says, they came out, but that could also be Sunday morning) they speak to no one (Mark 16:8).
Sunday morning Mary Magdalene goes again to the tomb early, to embalm the body, when it was still dark, that is before sunset and the stone was already rolled away, that means Jesus was risen before dawn Sunday morning!
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:21 AM
Zur
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I see your agruement, but how can you justify this of him rising at 3pm in the afternoon on a Saturday, if the Romans had a guard at the tomb. THis would have been clearly visible in broad daylight.

Plus just about all writing from the 1rst century believers Barnabas and many of the 1rst century believers account for a resurrection on the 1rst day.

Its not until 1800 yrs later that we come along after all the translations and transliterations of the scriptures that we think we have the best account of what happened...this is not directed at you, but the many arguments that everyone thinks their version of what happened is the most accurate rather than just trust the 1rst century believers on their account since it happen in their lifetime.
Shalom!
The stone was rolled away through the angel and he declared that Jesus was not there, because He had risen, so He rose before Saturday sunset. No one witnessed the resurrection, so your argument is one of silence and does not count.
Your argument to believe the Church fathers, I would respont, which ones? Some witness that the Last Supper took place on 14th of Nisan Tuesday evening after sunset, then Jesus had to be crucified the next Wednesday. The Church in Minor Asia rejected the traditions of the early Church fathers, that were under the influence from Rome, and I think they were right. If we read from Tertullian:" Others,with greater regard to good manner, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we "make" Sunday a day of festivity ( 197 AD). Also Justin the Martyr speaks of the day of the Sun (150 AD) as Constantine made the day of the Sun a law.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:56 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Shalom!
The stone was rolled away through the angel and he declared that Jesus was not there, because He had risen, so He rose before Saturday sunset. No one witnessed the resurrection, so your argument is one of silence and does not count.
Your argument to believe the Church fathers, I would respont, which ones? Some witness that the Last Supper took place on 14th of Nisan Tuesday evening after sunset, then Jesus had to be crucified the next Wednesday. The Church in Minor Asia rejected the traditions of the early Church fathers, that were under the influence from Rome, and I think they were right. If we read from Tertullian:" Others,with greater regard to good manner, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we "make" Sunday a day of festivity ( 197 AD). Also Justin the Martyr speaks of the day of the Sun (150 AD) as Constantine made the day of the Sun a law.
Was it not Polycarp who travelled to Rome to argue with the Bishop there against changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?...I read this somewhere...Polycarp who was a disciple of John the revealator?...Or was that Papias and Polycarp was his disciple?...The way I see this Friday death is that if He died on Friday, around 3pm then they had enough time to get Him down and lay Him in the tomb before sunset at 6pm, from 6pm Friday till 6am Saturday is 12 hours, 1 full night, from 6am Saturday till 6pm Saturday is 12 hours, 1 full day, here you have the first night and first day..Now from 6pm Saturday till 6am Sunday you have the second full night and from 6am Sunday till 6pm Sunday you have the second full day...From 6pm Sunday till 6am Monday you have the third full night and from 6am Monday till 6pm Monday you have the third full day...3 nights and 3 days, this calculation fulfills the math, however, then that means that all Christiandom is observing the wrong day and it shouldn't be Sunday, but Monday....
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