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Old 03-23-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
this calculation fulfills the math, however, then that means that all Christiandom is observing the wrong day and it shouldn't be Sunday, but Monday....
If Meeting together depended on something like that, you would have a point.

Interesting to me is that the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week was most likely what we would call Saturday night after the Jewish Sabbath. Consider whether the note given about Paul preaching "until midnight" was veryt likely for a Sunday morning Meeting.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If Meeting together depended on something like that, you would have a point.

Interesting to me is that the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week was most likely what we would call Saturday night after the Jewish Sabbath. Consider whether the note given about Paul preaching "until midnight" was veryt likely for a Sunday morning Meeting.
It didn't say he preached, it says he talked, spoke...Anyway, I was being facesious...
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
6,980 posts, read 2,089,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If Meeting together depended on something like that, you would have a point.

Interesting to me is that the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week was most likely what we would call Saturday night after the Jewish Sabbath. Consider whether the note given about Paul preaching "until midnight" was veryt likely for a Sunday morning Meeting.
Sabbatarian Christians keep the Sabbath and meet on different days of the week, including Sundays, for different events. One does not negate the other, and keeping the Sabbath is not simply attending church.
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:37 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 626,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Was it not Polycarp who travelled to Rome to argue with the Bishop there against changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?...I read this somewhere...Polycarp who was a disciple of John the revealator?...Or was that Papias and Polycarp was his disciple?...The way I see this Friday death is that if He died on Friday, around 3pm then they had enough time to get Him down and lay Him in the tomb before sunset at 6pm, from 6pm Friday till 6am Saturday is 12 hours, 1 full night, from 6am Saturday till 6pm Saturday is 12 hours, 1 full day, here you have the first night and first day..Now from 6pm Saturday till 6am Sunday you have the second full night and from 6am Sunday till 6pm Sunday you have the second full day...From 6pm Sunday till 6am Monday you have the third full night and from 6am Monday till 6pm Monday you have the third full day...3 nights and 3 days, this calculation fulfills the math, however, then that means that all Christiandom is observing the wrong day and it shouldn't be Sunday, but Monday....
Polycarp was a disciple of John, who lived longer than any other Apostle and also Polycarp lived long. When he went to Rome the issue was about the Resurrection day, not about Sabbath or Sunday, commentaries say about the observence of the Sunday Easter, this tradition of Rome Polycarp rejected. Many commentaries do only mention the 14th of Nisan, but that was the crucifixion day, the resurrection day was the 17th of Nisan they celebrated. The church in Minor Asia was later excommunicated by Rome for a time , because this church observed faith in the tradition of the apostles. I believe they were also keeping Sabbath, but you cannot find much material about it, guess why?
Richard you do not get it, do you celebrate your birthday on the day or date of your birth?
The 14th of Nisan is Monday 25 of March, 28 is resurrection day, the days change according to Passover, but the date, Nisan 17 is the same. The church in Minor Asia, Ephesus I think was the center, observed the date and not the day. Therefore when to observe Easter Sunday is not relevant, it can only be rejected as not the truth.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:05 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 626,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If Meeting together depended on something like that, you would have a point.

Interesting to me is that the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week was most likely what we would call Saturday night after the Jewish Sabbath. Consider whether the note given about Paul preaching "until midnight" was veryt likely for a Sunday morning Meeting.
It is not about the day when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. It is important that Jesus is the Passover lamb 1. Cor 5:7+8; Hebr 11:28 and that we keep the Passover, the death and resurrection of our Lord in truth.
How can you call Saturday night after the Jewish Sabbath a Sunday morning meeting? This is more a testimony that they kept the Sabbath and met after the Sabbath (that is already Sunday) and Paul preached till midnight.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:38 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Richard you do not get it, do you celebrate your birthday on the day or date of your birth?
The 14th of Nisan is Monday 25 of March, 28 is resurrection day, the days change according to Passover, but the date, Nisan 17 is the same. The church in Minor Asia, Ephesus I think was the center, observed the date and not the day. Therefore when to observe Easter Sunday is not relevant, it can only be rejected as not the truth.
Of course I get it...And it is not Minor Asia, it is Asia Minor...And i agree with what you have said...The number does not change, but the day does...I think what you are attempting to convey is that we should be looking at the number which never changes and not the day which does change from year to year...however, Mark 16:9 is regarding the resurrection day and why people keep a sunday observance and not a Saturday observance, which HaShem stated is a staute forever...

The existence of the Catholic Bishop of Rome (same positional authority as a Pope) Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) who approved (for Christendom) Constantine the Great's 321 AD Edict - changing the Sabbath to Sunday also represents a dilemma for 7th Day Adventists who are teaching the lie that there was not a Bishop ahead/in charge/positional authority of The Catholic Church until 606 A.D.

In 583 AD the eastern Emperor Justinian issued his famous decree that made the Pope the legal "Head of all the Holy Churches.


During a time of many heresies, early Christians clung to the apostles' teaching about Jesus as the standard for determining what was true and what was not.

- History of the Change from Saturday to Sunday Worship

So, here it seems that the Church in Rome had change the Sabbath to a Sunday before the Pope's Office was een legalized....

Here is some more interesting information:

Marcion was possibly the first heretic to attempt to do away with the Sabbath. Valentinus of Rome, who Polycarp denounced, who is believed to have been the first affiliated with Christianity to teach the Trinitarian concept of three hypostasis or make any clear statement of ‘equality’ regarding three alleged persons of God .

Here is what it is recorded that a one-time 4th century Catholic bishop named Marcellus of Ancyra wrote about Valentinus' writings, which appears to be discussing perhaps the earliest citation about the Holy Spirit extant (other than scriptural references or references that make no specific claims):
Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God...These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato (Source: Logan A. Marcellus of Ancyra (Pseudo-Anthimus), 'On the Holy Church': Text, Translation and Commentary. Verses 8-9. Journal of Theological Studies, NS, Volume 51, Pt. 1, April 2000, p.95).
Hence the idea of the Holy Spirit as one of three hypostasis, while it did appear in the 2nd century, was developed by a heretic.

Polycarp kept the seventh day Sabbath.
How do we now this?
There are at least four reasons:
  1. He endorsed the commandments of God, and the Sabbath is one of them.
  2. He objected to changing the date of Passover to a Sunday, whereas Sunday observers accepted this change.
  3. His church reported about the him and the Sabbath.
  4. Sabbath-keeping was still happening in his Asia Minor region until at least the fifth century.
According to the letter The Martyrdom of Polycarp by the Smyrnaeans,
on the day of the preparation, at the hour of dinner, there came out pursuers and horsemen" and the Polycarp was killed "on the day of the great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, Verses 7.1 & 8.1. Charles H. Hoole's 1885 translation. © 2001 Peter Kirby).
The use of these two expressions ("day of the preparation" and "the day of the great Sabbath") strongly indicates that those in Polycarp's area were still keeping the Sabbath in the latter portion of the 2nd century.

Furthermore, since when Polycarp visited Rome, he confronted the heretic Marcion, it should be noted that Marcion was probably the first who professed Christianity to write against Sabbath observance. And according to Irenaeus, Polycarp turned Christians away from the heretic Marcion (Irenaeus. Adversus Haeres. Book III, Chapter 3, Verse 4).
The 17th century historian William Cave reported that the early Christians in Asia Minor (which he called "the Eastern parts"), kept the Sabbath. Notice his report:
...the Sabbath or Saturday (for so the word sabbatum is constantly used in the writings of the fathers, when speaking of it as it relates to Christians) was held by them in great veneration, and especially in the Eastern parts honoured with all the public solemnities of religion...This is plain, not only from some passages in Ignatius and Clemens's Constitutions, but from writers of more unquestionable credit and authority. Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria, tells us, that they assembled on Saturdays, not that they were infected with Judaism, but only to worship Jesus Christ, the Lord of the sabbath (Cave William, D.D. Primitive Christianity: or the Religion of the Ancient Christians in the First Ages of the Gospel. 1840 edition revised by H. Cary. Oxford, London, pp. 84,85).

Hence there is an ancient document that claims that Polycarp did keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days (of course, other ancient documents, as shown in this article, support this). And there would have been no reason for Greco-Roman supporters in the 4th century to change the document to indicate that he did so, hence The Life of Polycarpdoes claim that Polycarp kept the Sabbath and the Holy Days.
- Polycarp of Smyrna: The Second Century Heretic Fighter


We all must be dilligent in order to ascertain the Truth...
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
I agree Jesus dead Wednesday the 14th Nisan about 3pm (from 12 -3 their was darkness) when He gave up His Ghost. I think it was the year 31 or 32, but that is really not important and almost impossible to calculate. I counted the time from Wednesday 3pm to Saturday 3pm as 72 hours, together it makes 3 full days and 3 full nights (exclusive reckoning), not counting half days as full.
From Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset was the annual Sabbath, the 15th of Nisan.
Friday the women bought the spices and prepared them and rested the weekly Sabbath.
You say Jesus rose from the dead Saturday night, that would be Friday sunset till Sabbath morning, if I understand you right. I think this is inclusive reckoning. This could be right, because no one has witnessed his resurrection. We both agree, that Jesus did not rose on Sunday, but on Sabbath, the 17th of Nisan. Our difference is that you count inclusive and I exclusive.[LEFT]


Shalom Zur,

there is one problem left for me.

If Jesus died on 14th Nisan and was was resurected on 17th Nisan, wouldn't that be the 4th day?

On the other hand, if Jesus died on Wednesday noon and was resurected Friday night, it were the 3rd weekday (but only according to modern counting?)

Jesus stressed that He would rise on the third day. Is it valid to understand day in this context as "period of 24 hours", no matter at which time this period began? As if I would say, "on the third day from now on" and meaning thereby, at least 48 and at most 72 hours from right now on - do you get what I mean?

Jesus said a day has 12 hours:

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. (John 11:9)







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Old 03-24-2013, 10:05 AM
 
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The resurrection was on the first day of the week to symbolize the beginning of a New Creation in Christ.

2COR 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:25 PM
 
Location: US
26,490 posts, read 14,086,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post

Shalom Zur,

there is one problem left for me.

If Jesus died on 14th Nisan and was was resurected on 17th Nisan, wouldn't that be the 4th day?

On the other hand, if Jesus died on Wednesday noon and was resurected Friday night, it were the 3rd weekday (but only according to modern counting?)

Jesus stressed that He would rise on the third day. Is it valid to understand day in this context as "period of 24 hours", no matter at which time this period began? As if I would say, "on the third day from now on" and meaning thereby, at least 48 and at most 72 hours from right now on - do you get what I mean?

Jesus said a day has 12 hours:

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. (John 11:9)






You gotta understand that they understood a day as 12 hours and a night as 12 hours...
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:58 PM
 
4,666 posts, read 2,303,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
The 14th of Nisan is Monday 25 of March, 28 is resurrection day, the days change according to Passover, but the date, Nisan 17 is the same. The church in Minor Asia, Ephesus I think was the center, observed the date and not the day. Therefore when to observe Easter Sunday is not relevant, it can only be rejected as not the truth.
Starting from counting the date of Nisan 14 would begin when it turns Nisan 14 in Jerusalem.
This year Nisan 14 would begin here at Sundown Tuesday March 26 th.

Jesus was not dead a full 24 hours on Friday Nisan 14, but a full 24 hours on Saturday 'the great Sabbath' of Nisan 15, and resurrected early on Sunday the 16th. So, we are dealing with parts of three days, but nevertheless three days are involved.

Jesus never instituted a memorial of his resurrection, but only of his death by the annual passing of the bread and wine.
-Luke 22 v 19
Just as an anniversary date does not come each year on a Friday, so, so-called 'Good Friday' would not always fall on a Friday as this year Nisan 14 falls here on a Tuesday evening.
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