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Old 03-28-2013, 03:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Since the Romans had someone guarding the tomb until the Sabbath was over, Jesus had to have risen once the guard left after the Sabbath on the 1rst day of the week. Anything after sunset on the Sabbath is now the 1rst day of the week.
That's a good point.
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Since the Romans had someone guarding the tomb until the Sabbath was over, Jesus had to have risen once the guard left after the Sabbath on the 1rst day of the week. Anything after sunset on the Sabbath is now the 1rst day of the week.
But the guards were witnesses of the incident according to Matthew 28:4
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
But the guards were witnesses of the incident according to Matthew 28:4
I had forgotten about Matthew 28. Those placed on watch were still there in the morning of the first day of the week when the Angel came and rolled the stone away to show that Jesus was already gone.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:42 AM
 
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-Matthew 27 shows they wanted a guard there until the 3rd day



Matthew 27:62-65

New King James Version (NKJV)

Pilate Sets a Guard

62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[a] and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”



-Matthew 28 shows after the sabbath was over the angel from heaven came and removed the stone, at this point the guards collapsed.

Matthew 28

New King James Version (NKJV)

He Is Risen

28 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[a] and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

-Luke 24 shows when they got there early at sunrise in the morning the tomb was already empty, so he rose before sunrise, so there goes the whole he rose at sunrise theory.

Luke 24

New King James Version (NKJV)

He Is Risen

24 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them,[a] came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it happened, as they were greatly[b] perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”




-Mark 16 shows when they got there at sunrise in the morning the tomb was already empty, so he rose before sunrise, so once again, there goes the whole he rose at sunrise theory.
Mark 16

New King James Version (NKJV)

He Is Risen

16 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?” 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.




-John 20 shows it was dark when they got to the tomb on Sunday and the tomb was empty, so yet another gospel shows he did not rise at sunrise and was already gone

John 20

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Empty Tomb

20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.








-All 4 gospels shows the Sabbath was over and it was now the 1rst day of the week and he had already risen from the grave before the sun rose. Mathew 28 is the only one that gives an account of when the angel came and it was after the Sabbath on the 1rst day of the week, so the "he rose at sunrise" is false and "he rose on the Sabbath is also False", so since he rose on Sunday the 17th of Nissan and died on Nisan 14.




The scenarios i listed earlier, its only the 1rst 2 scenarios below that would agree with scripture. The Wednesday one would work only if you counted 72 literal hours after 3pm that day and after the sun went down on Saturday night and its the 1rst day off the week he rose. Even if Jesus did wake up on Saturday at 3pm, he could have prayed to his father until the stone was removed on Sunday, so rising from a grave is not until the grave is physically open which was on Sunday as supported by all 4 gospels.



14th Thursday Died @ 3PM
15th Friday-Sabbath(Feast of Unleavened Bread): No work allowed
16th Saturday-Sabbath: No work allowed
17th Sunday -Rose from the Grave


14th Wednesday Died @ 3PM
15th Thursday Sabbath(Feast of Unleavened Bread) No work allowed
16th Friday
17th Saturday Sabbath- Rose from the grave after sunset


14th Friday Died @ 3PM
15th Saturday: Dual Sabbath(Feast of Unleavened Bread) No work allowed
16th Sunday
17th Monday-Rose from the Grave
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Even it were the day after Sabbath, I do not know if it would be correct to call this day Sunday, I wrote earlier:

The Romans had a 8 day week:

Roman calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the Jewish week and the Roman week are asynchronous, so to say Jesus was either ressurected on a Saturday or a Sunday or any other modern weekday is an anachronism. The Romans counted days from A to H and then again from A to H.

Jewish day/Roman day
1st day/ Day A
2nd day/ Day B
3rd day/ Day C
4th day/ Day D
5th day/ Day E
6th day/ Day F
Sabbath/ Day G
1st day/ Day H
2nd day/ Day A
3rd day/ Day B
4th day/ Day C
5th day/ Day D
6th day/ Day E
Sabbath/ Day F
1st day/ Day G
2nd day/ Day H
3rd day/ Day A
4th day/ Day B
5th day/ Day C
6th day/ Day D
Sabbath/ Day E

and so forth, you get my point?

Is there any evidence that the nundinum was abolished in the first century AD? As far as I know the 7-days-week was introduced by Constantine 321 AD.

I think this might shed the whole controversy in a new light, the only thing we might say for sure is, Sunday is not the Day of the Lord and no special day and to understand Sunday as the first day of the week, or rather the 8th day, is an anachronism.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I think this might shed the whole controversy in a new light, the only thing we might say for sure is, Sunday is not the Day of the Lord and no special day and to understand Sunday as the first day of the week, or rather the 8th day, is an anachronism.
This is a new twist to an interesting if inconsequential discussion.


Making it correspond to the Roman day of the Sun was a later accommodation to the Hebrew system, huh? Long ago I studied Latin and never knew that. Thanks for an interesting factoid to toss into the jumble of my mind.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Germany
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I might have been too hasty:

The planetary week seems to have been known already in the 1st century:

http://www.4angelspublications.com/B...HAPTER%206.pdf

But this leaves us again with the question, if the 7-days-week as we know it today was already known, why did they not employ the literal Greek term for "first day of the week" i.e. "protos emera ebdomada" or somthing similar, the word "ebdomada" (week) is found both in the Septuagint and in Flavius Josephus. This undermines the claim that "sabaton" means week.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:04 PM
 
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By Hebrew reckoning, the first day of the week must follow the 7th day of the week. And to those living under the Law God gave to Moses, the 7th day was the weekly Sabbath. If you refer to the time right after the Sabbath ends or the dawn after the Sabbath you are always talking about the 1st day of the week.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
By Hebrew reckoning, the first day of the week must follow the 7th day of the week. And to those living under the Law God gave to Moses, the 7th day was the weekly Sabbath. If you refer to the time right after the Sabbath ends or the dawn after the Sabbath you are always talking about the 1st day of the week.
My major concern is, that Jesus did not raise on Sunday. Do not get me wrong, I do not say that we should keep the Sabbath, but I have my suspicions about the Sunday.

And again I was too hasty, in early Roman planetary calendars, DIES SATURNI, the day of Saturn, Saturday was the first day of the week.

Quote:
The names of the days are in some cases derived from Teutonic deities or, such as in Romance languages, from Roman deities. The early Romans, around the first century, used Saturday as the first day of the week. As the worshipping of the Sun increased, the Sun's day (Sunday) advanced from position of the second day to the first day of the week (and saturday became the seventh day).
Encyclopedia Mythica: Origin of the names of the days

Also see this link:

The Modern Seven Day Week: Exploring the History of a Lie

PS: I realized that is a link from 7th day Adventists, I have no affiliations with them but only because they are considered a cult, it does not mean that they are per se wrong.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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The Adventist link is very informative, but I didn't see a connection made with their assertion that both Saturday and Sunday were not the days theoretically ordained for worship. I assume the meaning s that worship should start Friday eve and the Sabbath maintained through Sat?
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