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Old 03-19-2013, 10:33 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I agree, it was between Saturday sundown and Sunday sunup...According to the Jewish calendar it was still Saturday night up until sunup, when Sunday began...It was the Romans that marked the next day beginning at midnight not the Jews, and since the early church and it's Apostles were Jewish, well?...
Hi Richard!
The Saturday (Sabbath) begins Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. the hebrew translation for Mat 28:1 says "mozi Sabbath" that can go into the Saturday night after sunset, but I do not believe that Jesus was longer in the heart of the earth than 72 hours and therefore rose Sabbath 3pm. The end of the Sabbath is Saturday sunset and Sunday is from then to Sunday sunset. It looks like it is very difficult to think Jewish. It is like in the bible (Gen evening and morning day one = 24 hours) The night has 4 nightshifts and the 12 hour day begins about 6. The 9th hour is then 3pm, when Jesus died.
You are right Richard, the first day of the week is not in the Greek and if this translation is used with after the Sabbath at dawn to the first day of the week every one reads Sunday morning, which is not right. The 2 Sabbaths in Greek are the end of the weekly Sabbath and the dawning or begin of the first of the weeks (plural), the 7 special Sabbaths after Passover. Than no one can think of Sunday morning anymore. Shawua tov.

Last edited by Zur; 03-19-2013 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:51 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Hi Richard!
The Saturday (Sabbath) begins Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. the hebrew translation for Mat 28:1 says "mozi Sabbath" that can go into the Saturday night after sunset, but I do not believe that Jesus was longer in the heart of the earth than 72 hours and therefore rose Sabbath 3pm. The end of the Sabbath is Saturday sunset and Sunday is from then to Sunday sunset. It looks like it is very difficult to think Jewish. It is like in the bible (Gen evening and morning day one = 24 hours) The night has 4 nightshifts and the 12 hour day begins about 6. The 9th hour is then 3pm, when Jesus died.
You are right Richard, the first day of the week is not in the Greek and if this translation is used with after the Sabbath at dawn to the first day of the week every one reads Sunday morning, which is not right. The 2 Sabbaths in Greek are the end of the weekly Sabbath and the dawning or begin of the first of the weeks (plural), the 7 special Sabbaths after Passover. Than no one can think of Sunday morning anymore. Shawua tov.
It sounds as if you are Jewish...
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:11 AM
 
Location: US
26,349 posts, read 13,972,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Hi Richard!
The Saturday (Sabbath) begins Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. the hebrew translation for Mat 28:1 says "mozi Sabbath" that can go into the Saturday night after sunset, but I do not believe that Jesus was longer in the heart of the earth than 72 hours and therefore rose Sabbath 3pm. The end of the Sabbath is Saturday sunset and Sunday is from then to Sunday sunset. It looks like it is very difficult to think Jewish. It is like in the bible (Gen evening and morning day one = 24 hours) The night has 4 nightshifts and the 12 hour day begins about 6. The 9th hour is then 3pm, when Jesus died.
You are right Richard, the first day of the week is not in the Greek and if this translation is used with after the Sabbath at dawn to the first day of the week every one reads Sunday morning, which is not right. The 2 Sabbaths in Greek are the end of the weekly Sabbath and the dawning or begin of the first of the weeks (plural), the 7 special Sabbaths after Passover. Than no one can think of Sunday morning anymore. Shawua tov.
It is amazing that people do not see this and desire to hold onto their conditionings...Seeing as how the early church was comprised of Jews and led by Jews and still maintained attendance at a synagogue (even the Gentiles that believed came there to be educated in the ways of HaShem), along with the fact that the Apostles were Jewish so all around the thinking, speaking and understanding would have been thoroughly Jewish, and since the Jews spoke Hebrew and Hebrew has a specific word for week apart from the specific word for Sabbath, then the author would have employed it's Greek counterpart if he had intended week to be understood over Sabbathh...Just look at the Gospel of Matthew, it is rich in Hebraic idioms that many take literally because they do not realise that they are Hebraic idioms employed throughout...One example is the statement Yeshua made regarding the darkness of the eye (evil eye), many read it as a spiritual condition when this is farthest from the meaning, it is a Hebraic idiom for being greedy or selfish...Stingy...
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:20 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,524 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
It is amazing that people do not see this and desire to hold onto their conditionings...Seeing as how the early church was comprised of Jews and led by Jews and still maintained attendance at a synagogue (even the Gentiles that believed came there to be educated in the ways of HaShem), along with the fact that the Apostles were Jewish so all around the thinking, speaking and understanding would have been thoroughly Jewish, and since the Jews spoke Hebrew and Hebrew has a specific word for week apart from the specific word for Sabbath, then the author would have employed it's Greek counterpart if he had intended week to be understood over Sabbathh...Just look at the Gospel of Matthew, it is rich in Hebraic idioms that many take literally because they do not realise that they are Hebraic idioms employed throughout...One example is the statement Yeshua made regarding the darkness of the eye (evil eye), many read it as a spiritual condition when this is farthest from the meaning, it is a Hebraic idiom for being greedy or selfish...Stingy...
Shalom!
You are right, being greedy and selfish is a sin, we have to crucify our flesh, laying our old natur on the altar (which is the natur of a wolf, an evil eye) that a lamb comes out that is the natur of Christ, we have to put on, to practise holyness, without no one will see God. I am Jewish and live in Israel. My Hebrew could be better, but I manage it. The Roman Church cast out (excommunicated) every one that kept the Sabbath and the 17th of Nisan as Resurrection day (one day the Lord asked some one which day we have, I looked and it was the 17th of Nisan, that was the begin of my search for truth), Jews had to become worshippers of their pagan feasts as it is today. Who knows of the traditions of the true Church in Minor Asia which had the traditions of the Apostles; because John was the last one and his disciple Polycarp lived also long, but in his time 150 AD the Roman Church invented Babylon, for me it is interesting that no one could free this Church from Idolatry till now. The protest of the evangelicals has stopped (bei den Protestanten hat der Protest aufgehört und die alten Tanten sind übriggeblieben), they have become like her mother without salt, the one world church is coming, were every one can believe what he wants, just unity and love. But love without truth is falsehood and God is not in it. But truth without love is also wrong, sometimes it is not easy for me, I have learned much by revelation of the Holy Spirit, I have a lot of knowledge, but if I am not wise (and I am not) I run into trouble, may God help me. But my intentions are always to help and save people, the Lord knows.
God bless! Benjamin
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: US
26,349 posts, read 13,972,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
Shalom!
You are right, being greedy and selfish is a sin, we have to crucify our flesh, laying our old natur on the altar (which is the natur of a wolf, an evil eye) that a lamb comes out that is the natur of Christ, we have to put on, to practise holyness, without no one will see God. I am Jewish and live in Israel. My Hebrew could be better, but I manage it. The Roman Church cast out (excommunicated) every one that kept the Sabbath and the 17th of Nisan as Resurrection day (one day the Lord asked some one which day we have, I looked and it was the 17th of Nisan, that was the begin of my search for truth), Jews had to become worshippers of their pagan feasts as it is today. Who knows of the traditions of the true Church in Minor Asia which had the traditions of the Apostles; because John was the last one and his disciple Polycarp lived also long, but in his time 150 AD the Roman Church invented Babylon, for me it is interesting that no one could free this Church from Idolatry till now. The protest of the evangelicals has stopped (bei den Protestanten hat der Protest aufgehört und die alten Tanten sind übriggeblieben), they have become like her mother without salt, the one world church is coming, were every one can believe what he wants, just unity and love. But love without truth is falsehood and God is not in it. But truth without love is also wrong, sometimes it is not easy for me, I have learned much by revelation of the Holy Spirit, I have a lot of knowledge, but if I am not wise (and I am not) I run into trouble, may God help me. But my intentions are always to help and save people, the Lord knows.
God bless! Benjamin
Were you born and raised in Israel?...
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Germany
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I am familiar with the controversy when Jesus was resurrected, but I was not able to decide who is right.

I read that Greek "mia ton sabaton" is a Jewish Idiom, meaning the first day of the week, which I doubt somehow.

I did some investigation, maybe it helps:

I will take Leviticus 12:5 as reference to begin with:

But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

It seems the Hebrew had a word for week, but the Septuagint has:

But if she should have born a female child, then she shall be unclean twice seven days, according to the time of her monthly courses; and for sixty-six days shall she remain in her unclean blood.

The Greek has "twice seven days", "di epta êmeras", but "ebdomada" is used in Exodus 34:22 and other instances, so the Greek actually had a word for week that was also used in secular Greek (Hippocrates, see link) which was disputed in a discussion I once had.

The Latin has the same word for week as the Greek; Levitikus 12:5 in the Vulgate:

sin autem feminam pepererit inmunda erit duabus ebdomadibus iuxta ritum fluxus menstrui et sexaginta ac sex diebus manebit in sanguine purificationis suae

In the New Testament, wherever we read "first day of the week", the Latin has a phrase with Sabbath:

Mark 16:2

et valde mane una sabbatorum veniunt ad monumentum orto iam sole

Mark 16:9

surgens autem mane prima sabbati apparuit primo Mariae Magdalenae de qua eiecerat septem daemonia

Acts 20:7

in una autem sabbati *** convenissemus ad frangendum panem Paulus disputabat eis profecturus in crastinum protraxitque sermonem usque in mediam noctem

Strange, isn't it?

What's your opinion when the ressurection took place and what does "mia ton sabaton" mean?

PS: Richard1965 you said you speak German, I found this link, Luther also translated Sabbath instead of week, maybe it helps you.

http://amerstendersabbater.jimdo.com...e-hei%C3%9Fen/

This translation might also help:

http://www.torahtimes.org/NewTransla...thew/mt28.html


Last edited by svenM; 03-21-2013 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:42 PM
 
Location: US
26,349 posts, read 13,972,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I am familiar with the controversy when Jesus was resurrected, but I was not able to decide who is right.

I read that Greek "mia ton sabaton" is a Jewish Idiom, meaning the first day of the week, which I doubt somehow.

I did some investigation, maybe it helps:

I will take Leviticus 12:5 as reference to begin with:

But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

It seems the Hebrew had a word for week, but the Septuagint has:

But if she should have born a female child, then she shall be unclean twice seven days, according to the time of her monthly courses; and for sixty-six days shall she remain in her unclean blood.

The Greek has "twice seven days", "di epta êmeras", but "ebdomada" is used in Exodus 34:22 and other instances, so the Greek actually had a word for week that was also used in secular Greek (Hippocrates, see link) which was disputed in a discussion I once had.

The Latin has the same word for week as the Greek; Levitikus 12:5 in the Vulgate:

sin autem feminam pepererit inmunda erit duabus ebdomadibus iuxta ritum fluxus menstrui et sexaginta ac sex diebus manebit in sanguine purificationis suae

In the New Testament, wherever we read "first day of the week", the Latin has a phrase with Sabbath:

Mark 16:2

et valde mane una sabbatorum veniunt ad monumentum orto iam sole

Mark 16:9

surgens autem mane prima sabbati apparuit primo Mariae Magdalenae de qua eiecerat septem daemonia

Acts 20:7

in una autem sabbati *** convenissemus ad frangendum panem Paulus disputabat eis profecturus in crastinum protraxitque sermonem usque in mediam noctem

Strange, isn't it?

What's your opinion when the ressurection took place and what does "mia ton sabaton" mean?

PS: Richard1965 you said you speak German, I found this link, Luther also translated Sabbath instead of week, maybe it helps you.

kann "Sabbat" = "Woche" heißen ? - amerstendersabbaters Webseite!

This translation might also help:

Messianic Israél Standard Bible

Thanks for the links, I have read the German Bible, I have one...The thing is look up the Latin word for week, I'll bet you they had one distinct from the word for Sabbath...Which is were all the Romance languages get there word for week and they get there word for Saturday from the Hebrew word for Sabbath through the Greek through the Latin...
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:34 PM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 623,524 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Were you born and raised in Israel?...
I was born in Germany and therefore I speak German the best. I live in Israel 31 years. Most messianic congregations gather on Sabbath, the day of rest and have also the seder, the jewish passover. What I miss is the Resurrection day on Nisan 17th, which has nothing to do with Sabbath or Sunday, it is just 3 days and 3 nights after the Passover, the 14th of Nisan and falls also into the Passover week. It is like our birthday, we celebrate the date and not the day we are born. What today is called Passover is the feastday (High Sabbath) 15th of Nisan or the whole week, but the biblical Passover is the 14th of Nisan, followed by the week of unleavened bread (Lev 23). The Seder nowadays is on the 15th of Nisan after sunset, I found nothing how it was celebrated in the time of Jesus, who took the Last Supper on Tuesday evening (actually already Wednesday which was already the beginning of the 14th of Nisan, because a day is reckond from evening to evening), when He was cruzified on Wednesday.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,711,308 times
Reputation: 843
@ Zur, could you agree with this timetable?

Startseite - amerstendersabbaters Webseite!

@ Richard1965

the Latin word for "week" is (h)ebdomada just as in Greek, it occurs in the Vulgate in the OT, but nowhere in the NT.

I'm a bit wondering about the Vulgate, if Jerome understood "mia ton sabaton" as "first day of the week" why didn't he render it "primus dies hebdomada" or something like that?

On the other hand, how could the Latin speaking church claim that Christ was ressurected on the first day of the week, when the Latin bible said otherwise; or was it actually a common Jewish idiom that both the Greek and Latin speaking church understood correctly, as first day of the week?
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:13 PM
 
Location: US
26,349 posts, read 13,972,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur View Post
I was born in Germany and therefore I speak German the best. I live in Israel 31 years. Most messianic congregations gather on Sabbath, the day of rest and have also the seder, the jewish passover. What I miss is the Resurrection day on Nisan 17th, which has nothing to do with Sabbath or Sunday, it is just 3 days and 3 nights after the Passover, the 14th of Nisan and falls also into the Passover week. It is like our birthday, we celebrate the date and not the day we are born. What today is called Passover is the feastday (High Sabbath) 15th of Nisan or the whole week, but the biblical Passover is the 14th of Nisan, followed by the week of unleavened bread (Lev 23). The Seder nowadays is on the 15th of Nisan after sunset, I found nothing how it was celebrated in the time of Jesus, who took the Last Supper on Tuesday evening (actually already Wednesday which was already the beginning of the 14th of Nisan, because a day is reckond from evening to evening), when He was cruzified on Wednesday.
My Jewish side comes through my mother and they came from Pest, Hungary in the mid 1800s...There name was M(e)yers...
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