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Old 03-21-2011, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,900,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
He was praying for the the people of Israel whom God hardened so that they became enemies of the gospel for the sake of the rest of the world. He was praying for the pharisees and the saducees as well as the rest of Israel who were being cut off ...

Romans 11 explains it all very well ...
Then why do so many quote the very words as if they are meant for the entire world.

Thank you for looking deeper, many will not and will bear bad fruit instead.
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:02 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Then why do so many quote the very words as if they are meant for the entire world.

Thank you for looking deeper, many will not and will bear bad fruit instead.
You are missing the point, these are the people whom Christ called children of the devil and those who had gone after way of Cain ...

They were the worst of the worst ... And Christ prayed that God forgive them while on the cross, even as he said that he would draw all people to himself if he be lifted up(on the cross) ...
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,900,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You are missing the point, these are the people whom Christ called children of the devil and those who had gone after way of Cain ...

They were the worst of the worst ... And Christ prayed that God forgive them while on the cross, even as he said that he would draw all people to himself if he be lifted up(on the cross) ...
You dug deeper rather than attack and then you still dig deeper to try to understand unlike some others. I knew I was taking a chance by stating what I did, but you bore me good fruit and I thank you for that. I relish the words of Christ and know that every word uttered from Him has importance and you bore good fruit.
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:29 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,415,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Ah you all misunderstand what I am pointing out. What He said to the theif holds merit because Jesus was not praying He was speaking from His own knowledge concerning God and believers, but the prayer "forgive them they know not what they do" would obviously have fallen on deaf ears because of Christ state as sin for us at the time. But of course Jesus being God in the flesh would have remembered His own prayer and honored it but who was He speaking of? The world or those who was carrying out His torture, I would say the latter. Those who beat, scourged, and crucified Christ are those who He prayed for, not the world because much of the world didnt even know Him let alone knew what was going on. There is a difference between knowledge and prayer.

My how the bad fruit flies when people assume what the point is without considering the content and the context.
My friend...you seem to be forgetting that what was done on the cross was the "epitome" of evil against "The Word of God." If you believe that God heard Jesus' plea for forgiveness and granted it...Why wouldn't he forgive those of lesser offense??? aisi

Peace!
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
My friend...you seem to be forgetting that what was done on the cross was the "epitome" of evil against "The Word of God." If you believe that God heard Jesus' plea for forgiveness and granted it...Why wouldn't he forgive those of lesser offense??? aisi

Peace!
Nah nothing to forget, God can forgive whomever He chooses but He does have one little requirement, belief in Christ.
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:14 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,415,028 times
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Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Nah nothing to forget, God can forgive whomever He chooses but He does have one little requirement, belief in Christ.
Isn't this reason why they (those whom you believed to be forgiven) crucified Jesus to begin with...because they did not believe him? Just trying to see your logic through...no offense meant.

sigh...never mind.

Peace!
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:28 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Nah nothing to forget, God can forgive whomever He chooses but He does have one little requirement, belief in Christ.
Even those who are faithless are not too difficult for the Lord to heal and save. Consider the plight of an orphan:

Orphans don't need faith to be adopted. Orphans neither call on their adoptive parents nor can they make demands on others to adopt them. Orphans really have no say in the matter. They are at the complete mercy of the orphanage and the One that adopts. They simply are adopted.

To place a condition on an orphan, or require that an orphan first do this or that is really not in keeping with scripture, or God's mercy.

Scripture places all of us in that very condition of being an orphan. The Lord adopts us according to His own will and pleasure, not ours. He adopts us for His own glory so that we praise His grace:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

If He finds an orphan in broken spirits, or that perhaps has suffered abuse by it's care giver, or should He find an orphan in bondage to their own plight (many do not want to leave or are afraid to be set free from the orphanage), He sets them at liberty and delivers them:

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

The Lord is good...
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:29 PM
 
37,500 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Nah nothing to forget, God can forgive whomever He chooses but He does have one little requirement, belief in Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Isn't this reason why they (those whom you believed to be forgiven) crucified Jesus to begin with...because they did not believe him? Just trying to see your logic through...no offense meant.
sigh...never mind.
Peace!
It is best to leave it alone, Ans . . . logic and reason have nothing to do with his positions and intransigence.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:06 PM
 
15,010 posts, read 7,534,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Pleroo, be back tonight, gotta run. I want to address what you said here. (We have different views of if there is more than the here and now, but I think we might be very much in agreement about something.) Be back later..
peace,
sparrow
I'll be interested to hear what you have to say.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:29 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Yes, Sparrow, it makes sense in that it's congruent with what Christians teach is the purpose of Jesus' death. Any punishment or retribution or vengeance for sin by God really makes zero sense in light of that, imho, because it totally negates what Christians believe Jesus did.

(Of course, I have difficulty believing that we have anything more than the here and now in which to experience the healng and restoration that love (which you call God/Jesus) provides, which makes the focus on retribution even more insidious since it wastes time that is so precious and short.)

I agree with you about the time wasting thing. Even though I have a different overall viewpoint, I think it totally wastes time when we could be focusing more on loving our neighbor, etc. I just feel like there is such a focus on a "rapture" or a "life to come" when the focus shouldn't be "let's get out of here" but "let's make this place better for all of us. Let's LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR! (neighbor = all of creation.)" It just feels like such a waste of time that we're still stuck on this stuff that it seems we should have abandoned a long time ago and go on with the whole message of Jesus: Love. Our time here is very precious, whether you have a viewpoint that this is all there is or whether you have the viewpoint that there is more. I think we can definitely stand together on that.


Now I don't think that what I said (in my previous post) is really all that congruent with what christians teach is the purpose of Jesus' death. Now say this because I think most christians teach that Jesus became sin and God let out His wrath on Jesus and He took our place. I don't see it that way. I think man required it, not God...

I think part of what was crucified along with Jesus was the false picture of the angry, blood-thirsty god, but I think not many see that right now.

Well, I think that's all I want to say for now. That's a big topic and I'm not in a place right now where I can put my thoughts down into words properly.

talk to ya later, friend,
sparrow
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