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Old 01-26-2011, 03:08 PM
 
970 posts, read 722,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samuel cripps View Post
To begin, let's consider three verses:

1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Cor 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

It is through the death and resurrection of Christ that death itself will be destroyed.

Now another verse:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here we read that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Do we then have a contradiction between this verse that says that death will be destroyed in fire and the others that say that death will be destroyed via the death and resurrection of Christ? No, for the fire and the Cross are one and the same:

"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
"But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! (Luke 12:49-50).

By way of parallelism, Jesus identifies his death on the Cross as His baptism (Matt. 20:22) of fire. John the Baptist, you'll recall, prophesied of the coming fiery baptism in terms of judgment upon sin (Matt. 3:10-12). It is the baptismal fire of Christ that consumes all that is not fit for the Kingdom of God. The Cross accomplishes exactly the same thing, for Jesus bore the sin of the world in judgment, and it is through Christ's death that sin will be done away with.

The Lake of the Fire is the Cross; the second death is the death of the second Adam, in which we must partake in order to die to the flesh and be raised incorruptible.
Great post! Makes sense to me.

Don't want to sidetrack this but this verse ..

1Cor 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

..maybe this puts a nail in the coffin so to speak in believing in annihilation?

 
Old 01-26-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,309,347 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by samuel cripps View Post
Sciota,

I'd love to chat with your friend David..

Why do you say that my case is based on eisegesis and "word-proofed imposition"?

Why don't we get our hands dirty and see if I'm not taking things out of context.
samuel,

Blessings to you brother. I would love to get our hands dirty. I think David Embry pretty much covered the concept of the second death, outside the gates, and the lake of fire and brimstone, etc, etc on his website. Although I don't agree with him on some soteriological aspects of the salvific consummation and effects, that is besides the point. We agree on more than enough to be consistent with each other...the UR leanings, to me, are tidbits of errors....and we all have those burdens. I believe you are imposing eisegeisis...ie. word proofed impositions, on the text by using "death" "fire" "cross" liberally. The characteristics are defined by their context, as you imply that I may believe you are misrepresenting, in that, you appear to impose several themes that are in play that consistently develop these three concepts in the verses you have provided.
I will try to be brief in summary, so that we can expand further...exegetically

As far as 1 Corinthians 15 is concerned, the context is those who are in Christ...those who died in Adam...i.e. the law...such as the law of sin and death...historically, this is Old Covenant Judaism. Paul is concerned here not with every man that has ever walked the earth, but those who died according to the law...in Adam. As such was the concern for the Corinthian congregation, mainly "sojourners" within the Empire. These sojourners, were practicing Gentile Jews living throughout the known world, and it is these sojourners - 10 Tribes, who are being called and grafted into the Holy Lump, as Paul so extensively covered in Romans. The Corinthian congregation was merely the same makeup as most of the Roman Empire churches that went up during the great commission. This is the context of most of Paul's letters to the broader aspects of the church who were to receive them. Yes, there were some pagan conversion i.e hanger's on...that made up these congregations, but the majority fell into previously practicing Gentile Jews that attended these churches that Paul, Peter, and John wrote to. James, as far as I am concerned, is the only "Jewish" homeland directed text. So in light of that, Death, as per Corinthians, is covenantal death. Pagan Gentiles knew no covenant, knew no law, knew no sin...therefore they were alive, apart from the law, but suffered a mortal death.

Luke 12 is the same context....Christ is setting fire not to the entire earth, but the land of Israel. This is a predicated judgement on part of Israel, who suffered great tribulations and distress for executing their savior. We see in verse 47, and I will emphasize, And that servant [Jews], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes][Killed Christ]

Getting Revelation 20, as I provided David Embry's link of Pantelism and the Second Death, the destruction of Death and Hades, is purely a covenantal paradigm and confirms exactly what Paul is preaching in 1 Corinthians 15. It is death, Hades and/or Sheol, that is destroyed immediately after the resurrection of the dead and GWTJ, that was imposed for all those in Adam, that were raised in Christ. Paul further expands on this in 1 and 2 Thessalonians the details of this resurrection, that it is not only a singular event resulting in the destruction of Death, Hell, and Sin over the covenant people, but that of resurrection for the dead in Adam's law of sin and death, bound by the Mosaic covenantal practices, and for the living, the spiritual indwelling of God Himself through His blood Jesus Christ, that the Holy Spirit, Him, and His Son, can dwell with us spiritually, forever. No more bull's blood. John further explains in Revelation that consummation of these events that what he sees as existing is a new order, New Heavens and Earth comprised of covenantal people, the faithful - NJ - and the unfaithful, those outside the city gates, Judaizers, that take no part in the tree of life, and suffer the second death, which refers back to the previous chapter, being exterminated forever because of their unbelief in Christ, while practicing a covenant that Christ Himself fulfilled to the letter.

Blessings.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-26-2011 at 03:31 PM.. Reason: sp
 
Old 01-26-2011, 06:01 PM
 
30 posts, read 29,425 times
Reputation: 22
Sciota,


Are we in agreement that all men, whether they be Jew or Gentile, have sinned and died in trespasses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
samuel,

Blessings to you brother. I would love to get our hands dirty. I think David Embry pretty much covered the concept of the second death, outside the gates, and the lake of fire and brimstone, etc, etc on his website. Although I don't agree with him on some soteriological aspects of the salvific consummation and effects, that is besides the point. We agree on more than enough to be consistent with each other...the UR leanings, to me, are tidbits of errors....and we all have those burdens. I believe you are imposing eisegeisis...ie. word proofed impositions, on the text by using "death" "fire" "cross" liberally. The characteristics are defined by their context, as you imply that I may believe you are misrepresenting, in that, you appear to impose several themes that are in play that consistently develop these three concepts in the verses you have provided.
I will try to be brief in summary, so that we can expand further...exegetically

As far as 1 Corinthians 15 is concerned, the context is those who are in Christ...those who died in Adam...i.e. the law...such as the law of sin and death...historically, this is Old Covenant Judaism. Paul is concerned here not with every man that has ever walked the earth, but those who died according to the law...in Adam. As such was the concern for the Corinthian congregation, mainly "sojourners" within the Empire. These sojourners, were practicing Gentile Jews living throughout the known world, and it is these sojourners - 10 Tribes, who are being called and grafted into the Holy Lump, as Paul so extensively covered in Romans. The Corinthian congregation was merely the same makeup as most of the Roman Empire churches that went up during the great commission. This is the context of most of Paul's letters to the broader aspects of the church who were to receive them. Yes, there were some pagan conversion i.e hanger's on...that made up these congregations, but the majority fell into previously practicing Gentile Jews that attended these churches that Paul, Peter, and John wrote to. James, as far as I am concerned, is the only "Jewish" homeland directed text. So in light of that, Death, as per Corinthians, is covenantal death. Pagan Gentiles knew no covenant, knew no law, knew no sin...therefore they were alive, apart from the law, but suffered a mortal death.

Luke 12 is the same context....Christ is setting fire not to the entire earth, but the land of Israel. This is a predicated judgement on part of Israel, who suffered great tribulations and distress for executing their savior. We see in verse 47, and I will emphasize, And that servant [Jews], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes][Killed Christ]

Getting Revelation 20, as I provided David Embry's link of Pantelism and the Second Death, the destruction of Death and Hades, is purely a covenantal paradigm and confirms exactly what Paul is preaching in 1 Corinthians 15. It is death, Hades and/or Sheol, that is destroyed immediately after the resurrection of the dead and GWTJ, that was imposed for all those in Adam, that were raised in Christ. Paul further expands on this in 1 and 2 Thessalonians the details of this resurrection, that it is not only a singular event resulting in the destruction of Death, Hell, and Sin over the covenant people, but that of resurrection for the dead in Adam's law of sin and death, bound by the Mosaic covenantal practices, and for the living, the spiritual indwelling of God Himself through His blood Jesus Christ, that the Holy Spirit, Him, and His Son, can dwell with us spiritually, forever. No more bull's blood. John further explains in Revelation that consummation of these events that what he sees as existing is a new order, New Heavens and Earth comprised of covenantal people, the faithful - NJ - and the unfaithful, those outside the city gates, Judaizers, that take no part in the tree of life, and suffer the second death, which refers back to the previous chapter, being exterminated forever because of their unbelief in Christ, while practicing a covenant that Christ Himself fulfilled to the letter.

Blessings.
 
Old 01-26-2011, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,309,347 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by samuel cripps View Post
Sciota,


Are we in agreement that all men, whether they be Jew or Gentile, have sinned and died in trespasses?
I don't follow...sorry...can you expand?
 
Old 01-26-2011, 08:31 PM
 
7,794 posts, read 10,487,294 times
Reputation: 3397
Thread temporarily closed pending moderator consideration.
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