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Old 01-31-2011, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,117,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post


Try Psalm 92. Psalm 9. Psalm 37 etc, etc, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And I was talking seriously. So why would I PM you? Let the masses learn what we are talking about, unless you are afraid they might actually learn something.

Bring it on and let us converse,,

Peace,

Tony
The psalms you quote are in agreement with Psalm 107. God destroys in order for us to be "born again." Remade. Just like a potter.

With regards to our previous posts, you seemed more interested in "playing" than serious discussion, so I left it at that. Either that, or you just couldn't understand what I was saying, which is also ok.

In a nutshell, I don't agree with you that people who believe in Jesus Christ do so because of their own merits or abilities. They believe because they have been given faith directly from God Himself. Whether because they heard the Word preached, or through a miracle, or other situation. But it was God working in them, not anything they did of themself.

My impression is that you believe that your faith is "your own" that you dug up somewhere from within you. I disagree.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (which is ALWAYS possible! )

Peace,
brian
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
The psalms you quote are in agreement with Psalm 107.
Then we shall simply agree, to disagree. I do NOT see them saying this, but we each 'see' something different, don't we?

Quote:
God destroys in order for us to be "born again." Remade. Just like a potter.
Those who are His. Not ALL are His, for some are evil and of the devil. There is no getting around this. To be 'born-again', you must be considered a child of God. Not ALL humans are children of God.

Quote:
With regards to our previous posts, you seemed more interested in "playing" than serious discussion, so I left it at that. Either that, or you just couldn't understand what I was saying, which is also ok.
Probably both. You are fun to converse with.

Quote:
In a nutshell, I don't agree with you that people who believe in Jesus Christ do so because of their own merits or abilities.
It really isn't a fact of believing. You can tell almost anyone these days about Jesus Christ, and the historical evidence proves this man existed. The problem comes from submission. He, after all, is King of kings. Lord, of lords. So, giving up our own self pride, which I even have a HARD time doing, is what He is calling us to. To be 'born-anew' is to NOT be who we are, were.

Quote:
They believe because they have been given faith directly from God Himself.
Sadly, ALL have faith, for His Spirit has been poured out on mankind. All it takes is the nudge. The hearing, the seeing, and the love from brother to brother. Can't you see a Christian, even though you have no idea what they believe? I can.

Quote:
Whether because they heard the Word preached, or through a miracle, or other situation. But it was God working in them, not anything they did of themself.
I agree. It has to do with, again, submission.

Quote:
My impression is that you believe that your faith is "your own" that you dug up somewhere from within you.
Actually, my faith came at an early age, from Him. I just left it for many years. I really couldn't care less about God, the after-life, or even this life. So, where was that faith? Where did it come to my forefront from, now? Submission buddy. Love. Hope. Charity. I had to give up to give in. I had to give in, to give. I had to love, and try to give this self pride up. But, trust me,,,it is a work(His) in progress.

Peace,,

Tony
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:13 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,209,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
WHO is saved? Can a person be saved in this life? I would say yes. Does this mean everyone who claims to be saved, is saved? I think not. You must be born of the Spirit to be saved. Right?



A non-Christian is only a non-Christian because they have not heard the gospel message and heeded the calling. Yet, if they live as Christ did, full of love and mercy for humanity? Why would they not be saved? Romans 2.






It wasn't an election process. We made a choice, first fleshly and emotional and then spiritual, to follow Christ as King. It was our choice. It wasn't God's. God just made the means for us to hear the gospel. We still had to respond to it.




I would respond that this wasn't written to YOU. It was written to:

to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Are you qualified to be called these things? A Saint, a Bishop, a Deacon?



And to keep working it out, because power corrupts, and for a man in charge of a church or community,,the temptations of desiring power or money would be the cause of a hard fall.



God would have to work inside these people. Look what happened to Jesus when He was tempted. The Spirit enabled Him to overcome evil, by seeing God's plan for Him.



LOL, it wasn't a 'wise' choice. It was actually the HARDEST choice I have EVER made. There isn't a DAMN thing easy about being a Christian. The devil has marked me as an enemy, and he is relentless in his pursuit. So, I don't know what lala land you live on, but if you are not facing trials and tribulations almost on a daily basis, I would question my standing with God. It is only when we overcome evil, with the Spirit's help, that we gain momentum over the devil.

And God has the glory and the honor forever. Whether you give it to Him, or not.
Thank you for your input ... We certainly do not see eye to eye.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:15 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,378,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Thank you for your input ... We certainly do not see eye to eye.
Of course not. Your doctrine isn't confirmed throughout the Word. Sorry, but true.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,117,967 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Then we shall simply agree, to disagree. I do NOT see them saying this, but we each 'see' something different, don't we?

Maybe. But I agree with you that it's good to discuss things; it's how we all grow, I think.

Those who are His. Not ALL are His, for some are evil and of the devil. There is no getting around this. To be 'born-again', you must be considered a child of God. Not ALL humans are children of God.

Well, here I would say that I was once following the devil/flesh more than desiring to hear God's voice. But I give Him credit for changing that in me. And I think He's able to change everyone else, too.

Probably both. You are fun to converse with.

AH! I guess you have a good "poker face." I wouldn't have guessed, but I'm glad you enjoy it. So do I, especially now that I know you do, too!

It really isn't a fact of believing. You can tell almost anyone these days about Jesus Christ, and the historical evidence proves this man existed. The problem comes from submission. He, after all, is King of kings. Lord, of lords. So, giving up our own self pride, which I even have a HARD time doing, is what He is calling us to. To be 'born-anew' is to NOT be who we are, were.

I agree to a point. I just know that God had mercy on me back in 1989-90. Some big changes happened within me that I am not responsible for. They happened "to" me. I'm here today only thanks to Him!

Sadly, ALL have faith, for His Spirit has been poured out on mankind. All it takes is the nudge. The hearing, the seeing, and the love from brother to brother. Can't you see a Christian, even though you have no idea what they believe? I can.

This part sparks my curiosity. Since I believe more than ever now that all mankind has been justified, this seems in agreement with what you say about His Spirit having been poured out on everyone.. can you elaborate? I can "see" brothers and sisters in the faith, yes. But they were changed, they were not always that way. Just like me.

I agree. It has to do with, again, submission.



Actually, my faith came at an early age, from Him. I just left it for many years. I really couldn't care less about God, the after-life, or even this life. So, where was that faith? Where did it come to my forefront from, now? Submission buddy. Love. Hope. Charity. I had to give up to give in. I had to give in, to give. I had to love, and try to give this self pride up. But, trust me,,,it is a work(His) in progress.

Sounds like you do in fact acknowledge that your faith is not your own, but given to you from God Himself..

Peace,,

Tony
Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:43 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,209,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Actually, you want to hear something? I personally do not believe that God will destroy someone for simply being a sinner, a prostitute, a stipper, a drug addict.

I really think in my own heart,,,

That the people that will be DESTROYED are those who have blasphemed His Holy Name, done atrocities in His Name, and ruled over others using His Name in an evil manner. Yes,,,these will be destoyed, forever. In fact, it was this that caused me to turn from Universalism. I saw it, from Genesis to Revelation. From 1st Samuel, to Matthew.

God is KING. Those who take this power, and corrupt the people into all sorts of sin? These are the ones who will be destroyed. Just look at what the king of Sodom wanted from Arbraham. THE PEOPLE. Not the riches. He wanted the rule OVER the people. Gen 14:21. This is profound, yet not talked about. Really think it was for homosexuality that they were destroyed?






Agree.




If it is HIS CHOICE to do so.



He isn't going to spank with one hand and kiss with the other. God isn't confused. He knows exactly what He is doing.



Depends on who is being judged.



Like the flood, Sodom, the Garden, the enemies of Israel,,,etc, etc. I agree. The good is the outcome of the plan,,,not the 'emotional' feelings based upon human cravings.



Verse please? You say he WILL,,,so either now He MUST, or you prove to be a liar. I want to see ALL ENEMIES HEALED, from the WORD..

Read Isaiah 57, concerning the children of the harlots and sorcerers, who even after facing gods judgments continue on in error, whom God promises to heal.

I think you cannot understand or fully apreciate the true love of God for all people, even the ones that you may hate the most. The ones you think deserve to be destroyed forever, the ones you believe to be the true enemies.

I don't believe you fully understand what Jesus really means when he said to "love your enemies". It seems obvious to me that you still desire revenge and that is why you see it in the bible. It is certainly there to be seen if that is what your heart focused on, because that is where the heart of Israel was under the law and old covenant.

You look at the way the old testament describes God in his wrath and you see him through the eyes of carnal men.

I understand, i have thought about it many times. I have the sense of eye for an eye justice and it runs just as deep in my flesh as it does in everyone else's ... Especially concerning the most heinous criminals, which are as you say often times those in power who abuse their estate.

However, where you see nothing worth saving in these people, i see the greatest opportunity for the manifestation of the riches of Gods glory.

One thing is certain, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but he does take pleasure in their coming into repentance and an understanding of the truth.

I believe God is going to have his day in the lives of all people, and those who are the most base will certainly be abased. They will be made lower than the lowliest. And their shame will be more than unbearable, as Christ said it would have been better for them had they tied a mill stone around their neck and thrown themselves into the ocean ... They will certainly rue the day of their folly, because their place is so high, the distance is great once they come crashing down.

Nevertheless i believe God will pickup the pieces, and he will make the rough place smooth, and the crooked place straight. He has an intended purpose in the existence of evil and death in this world, and he will not allow them to have any victory at all over anything he has made.

You can reject the notion of election if you want, even though it is clearly spoken of in the scriptures (Rom 9:11,Rom 11:5,Rom 11:7,Rom 11:28,1Th 1:4,2Pe 1:10) (Isa 42:1,Isa 45:4,Isa 65:9,Isa 65:22,Mat 24:22,Mat 24:31,Mar 13:20,Mat 13:22,Mar 13:27,Luk 18:7,Rom 8:33,Col 3:12,1Ti 5:21,2Ti 2:10,Tts 1:1,1Pe 1:2,1Pe 2:6,2Jo 1:1,2Jo 1:13)(Just to name a few places) ... But it makes perfect sense to me ....

And Paul is himself clear, along with Christ, on the fact that it is God who Hardens the hearts of some and blinds them so that they should not hear and understand what the spirit of God is saying. They cannot repent, because they have not been given repentance, nor can they accept the gospel, because it is spiritually understood and they have not yet been spiritually quickened.

Regardless of whether or not you can accept the sovereignty of God in all things, even over the individual wills of men, the truth is if you are not at least hoping for the salvation of all people, even if you cant believe it will be true, then your heart is in the wrong place.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-31-2011 at 05:15 PM..
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:00 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,378,149 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Well, here I would say that I was once following the devil/flesh more than desiring to hear God's voice. But I give Him credit for changing that in me. And I think He's able to change everyone else, too.
He is, but will He? There is the universal million dollar question. I personally do not think He will, but does this mean He won't? No. I personally do not believe in ET, but does this mean when it is all said and done,,,there is a remote possiblity of it being true? I would think so. There have been more spiritual men than I am who thought so,,,. At the same time, even my doctrine of Conditional Immortality could be false. Who knows? I am not there to witness this fact,,,yet.

But, the change in you is what I refer to as being born anew, of the Spirit.

I also think if He chose to,,,He could change the world,,ALL of it,,,at the blink of an eye.

Quote:
I agree to a point. I just know that God had mercy on me back in 1989-90. Some big changes happened within me that I am not responsible for. They happened "to" me. I'm here today only thanks to Him!
That is amazing this time frame you have. It happens to be the same time He stepped into my life as well,,,in a HUGE way. I, too, am here thanks to Him.

Quote:
This part sparks my curiosity. Since I believe more than ever now that all mankind has been justified, this seems in agreement with what you say about His Spirit having been poured out on everyone.. can you elaborate? I can "see" brothers and sisters in the faith, yes. But they were changed, they were not always that way. Just like me.

God has poured His Spirit on all mankind, so that those who hear, may hear, and those who see, may see. The nudge is all it takes, even if it is just being led to someone who is preaching the gospel.
It is why so many flock to God in mass numbers. Even the atheist, who refuses to believe, will acknowledge on their deathbeds perhaps they were wrong. That this life could NOT be ALL there is. Yet they refused God their whole lives.

Peace,

Tony
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:02 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,378,149 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Read Isaiah 57, concerning the children of the harlots and sorcerers, who even after facing gods judgments continue on in error, whom God promises to heal.

I think you cannot understand or fully apreciate the true love of God for all people, even the ones that you may hate the most. The ones you think deserve to be destroyed forever, the ones you believe to be the true enemies.

I don't believe you fully understand what Jesus really means when he said to "love your enemies". It seems obvious to me that you still desire revenge and that is why you see it in the bible. It is certainly there to be seen if that is what your heart focused on, because that is where the heart of Israel was under the law and old covenant.

You look at the way the old testament describes God in his wrath and you see him through the eyes of carnal men.

I understand, i have thought about it many times. I have the sense of eye for an eye justice and it runs just as deep in my flesh as it does in everyone else's ... Especially concerning the most heinous criminals, which are as you say often times those in power who abuse their estate.

However, where you see nothing worth saving in these people, i see the greatest opportunity for the manifestation of the riches of Gods glory.

One thing is certain, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but he does take pleasure in their coming into repentance and an understanding of the truth.

I believe God is going to have his day in the lives of all people, and those who are the most base will certainly be abased. They will be made lower than the lowliest. And their shame will be more than unbearable, as Christ said it would have been better for them had they tied a mill stone around their neck and thrown themselves into the ocean ... They will certainly rue the day of their folly, because their place is so high, the distance is great once they come crashing down.

Nevertheless i believe God will pickup the pieces, and he will make the rough place smooth, and the crooked place straight. He has an intended purpose in the existence of evil and death in this world, and he will not allow them to have any victory at all over anything he has made.

You can reject the notion of election if you want, even though it is clearly spoken of in the scriptures (Rom 9:11,Rom 11:5,Rom 11:7,Rom 11:28,1Th 1:4,2Pe 1:10) (Isa 42:1,Isa 45:4,Isa 65:9,Isa 65:22,Mat 24:22,Mat 24:31,Mar 13:20,Mat 13:22,Mar 13:27,Luk 18:7,Rom 8:33,Col 3:12,1Ti 5:21,2Ti 2:10,Tts 1:1,1Pe 1:2,1Pe 2:6,2Jo 1:1,2Jo 1:13)(Just to name a few places) ... But it makes perfect sense to me ....

And Paul is himself clear, along with Christ, on the fact that it is God who Hardens the hearts of some and blinds them so that they should not hear and understand what the spirit of God is saying. They cannot repent, because they have not been given repentance, nor can they accept the gospel, because it is spiritually understood and they have not yet been spiritually quickened.

Regardless of whether or not you can accept the sovereignty of God in all things, even over the individual wills of men, the truth is if you are not at least hoping for the salvation of all people, even if you cant believe it will be true, then your heart is in the wrong place.
Honestly Ironmaw,

If you would like to converse with me, instead of having a pissing contest,,,let me know. You keep putting words in my mouth, saying I want people to be destroyed, and saying falsehoods about me left and right. Not the way,,AT ALL.

Tony
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:14 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,117,967 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
He is, but will He? There is the universal million dollar question. I personally do not think He will, but does this mean He won't? No. I personally do not believe in ET, but does this mean when it is all said and done,,,there is a remote possiblity of it being true? I would think so. There have been more spiritual men than I am who thought so,,,. At the same time, even my doctrine of Conditional Immortality could be false. Who knows? I am not there to witness this fact,,,yet.

But, the change in you is what I refer to as being born anew, of the Spirit.

I also think if He chose to,,,He could change the world,,ALL of it,,,at the blink of an eye.



That is amazing this time frame you have. It happens to be the same time He stepped into my life as well,,,in a HUGE way. I, too, am here thanks to Him.




God has poured His Spirit on all mankind, so that those who hear, may hear, and those who see, may see. The nudge is all it takes, even if it is just being led to someone who is preaching the gospel.
It is why so many flock to God in mass numbers. Even the atheist, who refuses to believe, will acknowledge on their deathbeds perhaps they were wrong. That this life could NOT be ALL there is. Yet they refused God their whole lives.

Peace,

Tony
Hi Tony,
I do agree that God can certainly do with us whatever He chooses. He is the Creator, we are the created..!

Still, just based on my own experiences of communion with Him in prayer, I just "know" that His love will see all things right for everyone. I don't think He is "troubled" by our small "wills," whether they are "free" or not. Just look at Saul! God intervenes when He chooses, how He chooses. And it's always for our own good.

I also don't think that God is "offended" or "resentful" for our unbelief. How could He be? If I was unbelieving, and He changed the course of my life so that I would believe in the end, why would He not do so for all of us?

I like one particular verse in 2 Peter:
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation" 3.15a

I believe what this is saying here, is that God does things in His own time, which means waiting and waiting until the individual soul is "ripe;" then He puts in the sickle and reaps the harvest, bringing salvation to the soul. (Rev. 14.15) This is regarding the earth of each of us individually.

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
brian
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