U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-27-2011, 05:47 AM
 
1,492 posts, read 2,227,257 times
Reputation: 250

Advertisements

what do you make of the book of Revelation?Moderator cut: edit ,I can't fathom God being so cruel as to literally pour out all the horrible plagues mentioned in the book of Rev. upon the earth,esp. on purpose.(I can beleive they are caused by man though).And I can't imagine something like that would be 'for our own good'.Jesus didn't wreck havoc upon the earth when He came,He did only good,so this just doesn't make any sense.
thanks for any thoughts,UR's

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-27-2011 at 02:10 PM.. Reason: Deleted reference of hell for the sake of a good discussion on the other things in revelations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-27-2011, 06:03 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,763,217 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122 View Post
what do you make of the book of Revelation? Moderator cut: edit,I can't fathom God being so cruel as to literally pour out all the horrible plagues mentioned in the book of Rev. upon the earth,esp. on purpose.(I can beleive they are caused by man though).And I can't imagine something like that would be 'for our own good'.Jesus didn't wreck havoc upon the earth when He came,He did only good,so this just doesn't make any sense.
thanks for any thoughts,UR's
You know I'm still trying to figure that one out too. Right now I still believe in all the end times stuff like the book of Revelation seems to predict but I have trouble with why God would want to do all that on purpose too, just doesn't make sense so the only way I can reconcile it is just to say it has to be for some reason, it's part of His plan.

I don't know SC, it's a tricky book and it may be that it's all symbolic like some people believe but I can't get past the reality of some of it. I can't just pass it off as ALL symbolic, it just doesn't read that way to me. Maybe these things have to take place to truly wipe out all of the wickedness of the world, I don't know.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-27-2011 at 02:11 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122 View Post
what do you make of the book of Revelation?Moderator cut: editI can't fathom God being so cruel as to literally pour out all the horrible plagues mentioned in the book of Rev. upon the earth,esp. on purpose.(I can beleive they are caused by man though).And I can't imagine something like that would be 'for our own good'.Jesus didn't wreck havoc upon the earth when He came,He did only good,so this just doesn't make any sense.
thanks for any thoughts,UR's
Hi SC122,
I was going to start another thread about God's judgements, but since the book of Revelation speaks much about judgement, I'll post it here, since it's quite relevant.

The book of Job deals with Judgement. God confronts Job in the last chapters, and deals with Job's opinion that he was not in the wrong, and that God was dealing wrongly with him.
God deals with Job by asking a lot of interesting questions, and thereby revealing His wisdom and glory.
In the end, Job repents of his arrogance in sackcloth and ashes. Ashes are the result of fire, are they not?

Repentance comes from within the fire. God is a consuming fire, and He addresses man's unbelief and pride through His presence and glory. This process breaks us down, eliminating our pride. And when we are brought low, then He is there to lift us up again and exalt us. When we exalt ourselves, we get abased. When HE exalts us, it is because we are humble.

Another good example of how God deals with man is given in Psalm 107. It's worth posting here, for it shows us just how God actively works with His creature, bringing him to a point of proper humility and dependence, in order that He may save him. It's beautiful!

"1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in.
5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.
8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
16 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.
20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
23 They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
24 These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.
25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.
28 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.
31 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
32 Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders.
33 He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground;
34 A fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein.
35 He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings.
36 And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation;
37 And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase.
38 He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease.
39 Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow.
40 He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.
41 Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.
42 The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.
43 Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD."


So there is instruction and discipline, but it is for man's good, not to hurt him pointlessly.

God is love. Love seeks not its own, but the betterment of others. What you find in Revelation must be understood from the vantagepoint of God's Divine Love.


Blessings!
Brian

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-27-2011 at 02:13 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 06:47 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,573,726 times
Reputation: 4463
The Revelation of Jesus Christ
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,585 posts, read 31,984,992 times
Reputation: 9423
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122 View Post
what do you make of the book of Revelation? As with the concept of a literal hell,I can't fathom God being so cruel as to literally pour out all the horrible plagues mentioned in the book of Rev. upon the earth,esp. on purpose.(I can beleive they are caused by man though).
I keep hearing arguments that man has no free will to act on his own, and if that it true, then it could not be caused by man, but God. Personally I believe man has free will. The tribulation will occur after the rapture when anti-christ rules and the earth is populated by people who rejected God. It is a recepie for war.

Also, there are things which occur and simply cannot be acts of men. For example the black death in Europe killed millions, and it was not an act of man. Earthquakes kill people, and they are not acts of man. Volcanoes erupt, and they are not acts of man. The global flood occurred, and it was not an act of Man. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone, and it was not an act of man.

Many of the horrors of revelation are natural disasters, which cannot be acts of men.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 07:30 AM
 
166 posts, read 134,105 times
Reputation: 72
i believe that after the judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness, as isaiah prophesied.

Notice in Revelations chapter 22, after all the judgments, beings thrown into the lake of fire (in my opinion is where the learning process takes place), here is whats happening

Rev 22-15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The offer and invitation is still open for "whosoever".

Jesus told the woman at the well that if one partakes of the water He gave one would not thirst anymore, so He has to be calling out to those that are in need of the water of life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,585 posts, read 31,984,992 times
Reputation: 9423
Quote:
Originally Posted by boanerges View Post
i believe that after the judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness, as isaiah prophesied.

Notice in Revelations chapter 22, after all the judgments, beings thrown into the lake of fire (in my opinion is where the learning process takes place), here is whats happening

Rev 22-15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The offer and invitation is still open for "whosoever".

Jesus told the woman at the well that if one partakes of the water He gave one would not thirst anymore, so He has to be calling out to those that are in need of the water of life.
Yes, the offer is still open. Rev 22 says "I am coming soon", so it refers to times BEFORE the 2nd coming of Christ, which is now, today.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,118,767 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, the offer is still open. Rev 22 says "I am coming soon", so it refers to times BEFORE the 2nd coming of Christ, which is now, today.
"Behold, I come quickly." and "I am coming soon."

These are NOT saying the same thing, imo..

The first translation seems to be fact: I come quickly.
The second seems to give the idea of some unknown time in the near future, a 1-time event.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Blessings,
brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,581,108 times
Reputation: 1584
I have no doubt that God's wrath is real and that it can be poured out on the earth. However, the scriptures always say that his anger lasts for "but a moment" but that his mercy endures forever. I think that the fire and the cross are the same, as was being discussed in another thread and that God will sit as a refiner ...

"Who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall
stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire; and he
shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall
purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and
silver, that they may offer unto the Lord
an offering in righteousness."--Malachi 3:2,3.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-27-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,573,726 times
Reputation: 4463
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
"Behold, I come quickly." and "I am coming soon."

These are NOT saying the same thing, imo..

The first translation seems to be fact: I come quickly.
The second seems to give the idea of some unknown time in the near future, a 1-time event.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Blessings,
brian
The word "quickly" is from the Greek TACHU meaning shortly, without delay, soon. Why would Christ say He was coming quickly, shortly, soon and without delay if two long millenniums of time were to stretch out between His promise and its fulfillment? If such was the case, He either lied, deceived, or was mistaken. Two thousand years are not soon, shortly, or without delay by the stretch of anybody's imagination.

His last word to the Churches is: "I am coming quickly," and this is the testimony of the One who is Faithful and true. He makes His coming to be the "next thing" for the Christian. He sets up neither time nor event between Himself and His body. He takes special pains to assure His people that there is no required delay, no parenthesis of time between Him and the saints. He uses a word which from the earliest days of classic Greek signifies "without delay." When therefore, He says, "I am coming (for He uses the present tense),"He says actually, "I am coming, I am already in the process of coming, and there shall be no delay." It would be impossible to use language which could more adequately, and without reserve, teach that the coming of Christ is a present and continuous event.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top