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Old 01-28-2011, 07:13 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149

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Hi, I didn't want to take heartsongs thread off topic and with my many questions I fear it probably would have so am just staring a new topic:

I'm just throwing some questions out there for anyone who wants to answer any of them. I hope this sparks some discussion, answer one or any of them. Or just give your thoughts, whatever ya got is good! I'm not asking these questions accusingly. These are sincere questions.)

Hey, if "love never ends" what do you think will happen to your love for your family who did not make it? How can your love for them end if "love never ends"? How can God erase your memory of them..? Wouldn't that be decieving... that LOVE would have to be ERASED from your heart? Don't you find something disturbing about that prospect?


And if you do know your son in heaven, but say his mother did not make it. Wouldn't you guys know that she did not make it, whether you remember her or not? If he is your son, wouldn't you all wonder about who the mother was, about who your wife was? And if we DON'T know each other.... well, that's a pretty big issue if we don't know who we were on earth.

If some are annihilated, and we don't know who they are, then don't you think we will all miss out on some very important lessons about life and love and how it all played out? In how love overcame things in a persons unique life, and how non-love destroyed things in a person's unique life? The way I see it, every life is unique and every life will end up showing us something very important. If so many are annihilated... those things will be wasted. A waste of a life. Do you really feel that God would allow that? With such a PERFECTLY fine tuned everything around us, why would God allow such a waste...? And how could Love conquer ALL... if it does NOT conquer all? If one human being is annihilated then love did not CONQUER that human being.

If you are not you in heaven, who are you? Why go through all the motions of life, if you are not going to recall who you were or what you went through or the lessons you learned and how love (God) conquered in your life? If we don't recognize each other for who we were, then we will not recognize our own selves for who we were. So is heaven going to be a land of strangers... where is the story of redemption in that? Where is the victory?

Love never ends.
Love conquers all.
I just am not seeing how those two fit into "annihilation". Can you (general you, whoever wants to discuss with me) help me to understand how you view those two things? What do they mean to you?

Help me understand how you all reconcile these things with your belief in annihilation.

I have more questions, but I will "spare-o" you for now.
Sorry, I know that was a lot. But I figured may as well get a bunch of questions out in the open at the get go.

Peace and thank you for considering these things and talking with me.
I appreciate it. I know we probably will not see eye to eye and I'm not really trying to start a big debate here. I sincerely want folks to share their views/beliefs/ponderings/thoughts. It helps us to understand each other's perspectives a little better I think. I'm not out to change your mind. I'm out to UNDERSTAND you, and understand YOUR point of view. I view you as a brother or sister, NOT as an "enemy".

sparrow

 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:22 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149
P.S. If you're not sure of answers... there's nothing wrong with that. There are questions people ask that I'm not sure of the answers and the questions go on my list of questions I'm currently seeking answers to. Again, I'm not asking these in an accusing manner. Questions help us to grow, I firmly beleive. So if you don't feel like answering, well at least this may make some good pondering material. I think God wants us to question and I think it is something that brings us closer to Him when we do so. If there were not questions, we would feel no urge to look for answers, right? Peace guys,
sparrow
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:02 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,302 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Hi, I didn't want to take heartsongs thread off topic and with my many questions I fear it probably would have so am just staring a new topic:

I'm just throwing some questions out there for anyone who wants to answer any of them. I hope this sparks some discussion, answer one or any of them. Or just give your thoughts, whatever ya got is good! I'm not asking these questions accusingly. These are sincere questions.)
Ok.

Quote:
Hey, if "love never ends" what do you think will happen to your love for your family who did not make it?
Who is our family? Those to whom I call relatives are related to my flesh? They are my blood. Do I love them, yes. But my family are those IN Christ. We are 1 Body.

And how I feel about the conditions of those relatives who didn't make it, is not contingent upon my belief in God, nor my love for Him. He is the Judge, not me.

Quote:
How can your love for them end if "love never ends"?
Who said it has to?

Quote:
How can God erase your memory of them..?
Because He is God?

Quote:
Wouldn't that be decieving... that LOVE would have to be ERASED from your heart?
Does the love need to be erased? Do you think Jesus' love was erased? Do you think God, who judges, is going to erase His love? I don't, but it also doesn't change the fact that God offered Life THROUGH His Son, alone, and those who do not partake of His divine gift will perish.

Quote:
Don't you find something disturbing about that prospect?
No. It is not mine to question, honestly. I AM NOT GOD.

Quote:
And if you do know your son in heaven, but say his mother did not make it. Wouldn't you guys know that she did not make it, whether you remember her or not?
Depends. No one has the foggiest idea what heaven is like, so we really don't know how we will act, feel, or anything. We can only have faith that it will be totally awesome to be in His presence.

Quote:
If he is your son, wouldn't you all wonder about who the mother was, about who your wife was?
Who is my son, and my wife? If they are NOT in the Body of Christ, then are they really, on a spiritual level? Jesus quantified this by His statement:

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."


Quote:
And if we DON'T know each other.... well, that's a pretty big issue if we don't know who we were on earth.
Why is this a big issue? You don't think there will be utter bliss to be in the presence of Christ Almighty, and the Father, and those who are IN the Body? That isn't enough?

At the same time, don't you think that is why spreading the gospel message, especially to your relatives, is important? It is extremely important.

Quote:
If some are annihilated, and we don't know who they are, then don't you think we will all miss out on some very important lessons about life and love and how it all played out?
Again, not to sound cold, but who are we to question these things? What will we miss out on, when we will know everything? Lessons? The lessons will be over. Life will be all that remains. IN Him, THOUGH HIM.

Quote:
In how love overcame things in a persons unique life, and how non-love destroyed things in a person's unique life? The way I see it, every life is unique and every life will end up showing us something very important.
And that is the lessons we learn, from THIS life. We can look at Jesus, the prophets, the Apostles, etc and see how we should live in the Kingdom. We can also look at the benevolent love and actions of others, like Gandhi, etc, and see how THEY lived. Lesson are very important, and we must learn them. But, there is nothing else to learn when this life is over. It will be all about Him, Jesus Christ.

Quote:
If so many are annihilated... those things will be wasted. A waste of a life. Do you really feel that God would allow that?
It really was THEIR choice to make. It has ALWAYS been a choice. Absolute FREE-WILL. Life is there. We can see it, feel it, bask in it. We can be, and SHOULD be living it now. The Love of One that saved us, and gave us Life. We should share it. Glow about it. Like you did with your thread about love. Very beautiful. But again, we are NOT God, nor should we mold a god after our own hearts, either good, nor evil. We are not to try and subject God to our own personal feelings.

Quote:
With such a PERFECTLY fine tuned everything around us, why would God allow such a waste...?
Fine tuned? Have you SEEN this world in which we live? This is Satan's domain, and those who are his, will perish with him.

Quote:
And how could Love conquer ALL... if it does NOT conquer all?
Where does it say love conquers all? We are the commanded to conquer, or rather overcome which IS conquer. God doesn't need to conquer, for He is God.

Quote:
If one human being is annihilated then love did not CONQUER that human being.
Men LOVE darkness rather than Light. How is this God's fault? It isn't, so why do we have to assume it is?

Quote:
If you are not you in heaven, who are you?
Dead.

Quote:
Why go through all the motions of life, if you are not going to recall who you were or what you went through or the lessons you learned and how love (God) conquered in your life?
Again, you are assuming that everyone knows God. They don't. Most don't even WANT to. Most turn away from Him, even if they are called. Sad, but true. Only the conquerers/overcomers, will inherit anything. The rest are laid to rest, forever.

Quote:
If we don't recognize each other for who we were, then we will not recognize our own selves for who we were.
Do we really need to? Does anyone fathom complete utopia?

Quote:
So is heaven going to be a land of strangers... where is the story of redemption in that?
Sparrow, you seem like a lovely soul, but you are assuming you will not know anyone, even though Jesus KNEW those who were His. We will most certainly know. It isn't like we will be standing around the water bottle struggling to think of things to say.

Quote:
Where is the victory?
He came 2000 years ago. His Name is Jesus Christ, our King. The victory is His.

Quote:
Love never ends.
God IS Love, so yes, this is correct.

Quote:
Love conquers all.
Again, His Name is Jesus. That is the Love that conquered death. We MUST be IN Him to receive Life. He says this, continually. In THIS life, not another. There is no other life. There is no second chances. EVER. We can only repent and believe now.


Quote:
I just am not seeing how those two fit into "annihilation".
It is because you do NOT understand divine justice. How could you, because you have placed God on man's terms. Not His.

Quote:
Can you (general you, whoever wants to discuss with me) help me to understand how you view those two things? What do they mean to you?
I did.

Quote:
Help me understand how you all reconcile these things with your belief in annihilation.
I really cannot. That is between you and the Spirit.

Quote:
I have more questions, but I will "spare-o" you for now.
Keep them coming. I love answering them.

Quote:
Sorry, I know that was a lot. But I figured may as well get a bunch of questions out in the open at the get go.
No biggie.

Quote:
Peace and thank you for considering these things and talking with me.
I appreciate it. I know we probably will not see eye to eye and I'm not really trying to start a big debate here. I sincerely want folks to share their views/beliefs/ponderings/thoughts. It helps us to understand each other's perspectives a little better I think. I'm not out to change your mind. I'm out to UNDERSTAND you, and understand YOUR point of view. I view you as a brother or sister, NOT as an "enemy".
Thank you for seeking. We can only offer what we have learned, and the lessons we have been through. I have been where you are now. It was sad to think of those whom I love now, not being there later. But, I cannot mold God into a god that is NOT God. Otherwise, I will be given over to a delusion that is not real. Romans 1.

Bless you,

Tony
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:20 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,040,760 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Ok.



Who is our family? Those to whom I call relatives are related to my flesh? They are my blood. Do I love them, yes. But my family are those IN Christ. We are 1 Body.

And how I feel about the conditions of those relatives who didn't make it, is not contingent upon my belief in God, nor my love for Him. He is the Judge, not me.



Who said it has to?



Because He is God?



Does the love need to be erased? Do you think Jesus' love was erased? Do you think God, who judges, is going to erase His love? I don't, but it also doesn't change the fact that God offered Life THROUGH His Son, alone, and those who do not partake of His divine gift will perish.



No. It is not mine to question, honestly. I AM NOT GOD.



Depends. No one has the foggiest idea what heaven is like, so we really don't know how we will act, feel, or anything. We can only have faith that it will be totally awesome to be in His presence.



Who is my son, and my wife? If they are NOT in the Body of Christ, then are they really, on a spiritual level? Jesus quantified this by His statement:

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."




Why is this a big issue? You don't think there will be utter bliss to be in the presence of Christ Almighty, and the Father, and those who are IN the Body? That isn't enough?

At the same time, don't you think that is why spreading the gospel message, especially to your relatives, is important? It is extremely important.



Again, not to sound cold, but who are we to question these things? What will we miss out on, when we will know everything? Lessons? The lessons will be over. Life will be all that remains. IN Him, THOUGH HIM.



And that is the lessons we learn, from THIS life. We can look at Jesus, the prophets, the Apostles, etc and see how we should live in the Kingdom. We can also look at the benevolent love and actions of others, like Gandhi, etc, and see how THEY lived. Lesson are very important, and we must learn them. But, there is nothing else to learn when this life is over. It will be all about Him, Jesus Christ.



It really was THEIR choice to make. It has ALWAYS been a choice. Absolute FREE-WILL. Life is there. We can see it, feel it, bask in it. We can be, and SHOULD be living it now. The Love of One that saved us, and gave us Life. We should share it. Glow about it. Like you did with your thread about love. Very beautiful. But again, we are NOT God, nor should we mold a god after our own hearts, either good, nor evil. We are not to try and subject God to our own personal feelings.



Fine tuned? Have you SEEN this world in which we live? This is Satan's domain, and those who are his, will perish with him.



Where does it say love conquers all? We are the commanded to conquer, or rather overcome which IS conquer. God doesn't need to conquer, for He is God.



Men LOVE darkness rather than Light. How is this God's fault? It isn't, so why do we have to assume it is?



Dead.



Again, you are assuming that everyone knows God. They don't. Most don't even WANT to. Most turn away from Him, even if they are called. Sad, but true. Only the conquerers/overcomers, will inherit anything. The rest are laid to rest, forever.



Do we really need to? Does anyone fathom complete utopia?



Sparrow, you seem like a lovely soul, but you are assuming you will not know anyone, even though Jesus KNEW those who were His. We will most certainly know. It isn't like we will be standing around the water bottle struggling to think of things to say.



He came 2000 years ago. His Name is Jesus Christ, our King. The victory is His.



God IS Love, so yes, this is correct.



Again, His Name is Jesus. That is the Love that conquered death. We MUST be IN Him to receive Life. He says this, continually. In THIS life, not another. There is no other life. There is no second chances. EVER. We can only repent and believe now.




It is because you do NOT understand divine justice. How could you, because you have placed God on man's terms. Not His.



I did.



I really cannot. That is between you and the Spirit.



Keep them coming. I love answering them.



No biggie.



Thank you for seeking. We can only offer what we have learned, and the lessons we have been through. I have been where you are now. It was sad to think of those whom I love now, not being there later. But, I cannot mold God into a god that is NOT God. Otherwise, I will be given over to a delusion that is not real. Romans 1.

Bless you,

Tony
Excellent post, Tony !!
Whooa, I tell ya, this post truly represents a man/people after God's own heart..... AMEN !!
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:51 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149
Hey Tony, Just to be clear here... What I am seeking is where YOU Are coming from and your perspective as an annihilationist. (or conditional immortality). I am absolutely secure in my belief of UR, brother. I have zero doubt. The doubts have all been removed for me. I'm just telling you that because I don't want to mislead you on where I'm coming from or WHY I am asking these questions. You say you have been where I am, but in reality you cannot say that, because you do not know where I "am" or where I have "been" or how I have arrived at where I "am". Fair enough? (I am saying this in a friendly tone, here!)

Some of your answers lead to far many more questions. And I think some things you misunderstood what I was asking. But I will try to go through them all later tonight or over the weekend when I have a chunk of time and am not rushing.

In the meantime, thanks for taking the time to answering and sharing your beliefs. I do sincerely appreciate it!
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:25 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,302 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well if we are to believe the traditional teaching of the rich man and Lazarus parable as being about heaven and hell(which i do not believe it is by the way) , then you would have to say yes we do recognize each other.
I don't either, so I do not take it as literal. Neither the recognization, nor the torment. It has to do with how we are NOW, in this life,,not the after life. How is our spirits? Are we tormented, or are we comforted?

Quote:
So it really does not make sense for any who believe in eternal hell to agree with HotinAz when he say's he would like to think he would recognize family members, even though he's not sure that would be the case,because if the rich man and Lazarus parable is about heaven and hell,it's clear that we recognize one another and worse still, those in eternal hell recognize those who are in heaven.
I do not see this as a question. I am not looking for ANYONE to agree with me. People ask opinions, based upon the understanding given to me, and I offer it.

Quote:
HotinAz what is your take on the rich man and Lazarus parable, because we are traditionally taught that the rich man's position is eternal, how does someone who believes in annihilation interpret this parable ?.
Already explained, above.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:33 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,302 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Hey Tony, Just to be clear here... What I am seeking is where YOU Are coming from and your perspective as an annihilationist. (or conditional immortality). I am absolutely secure in my belief of UR, brother. I have zero doubt.
My perspective has nothing to do with anything. It is ALL in the Word, and that is where I found it, along with the Spirit's help.

Quote:
The doubts have all been removed for me.
Then why ask questions? If you are done seeking, then reside in the comfort.

Quote:
I'm just telling you that because I don't want to mislead you on where I'm coming from or WHY I am asking these questions.
If I had known where you WERE coming from, I really would not have bothered answering. IAH.

Quote:
You say you have been where I am, but in reality you cannot say that, because you do not know where I "am" or where I have "been" or how I have arrived at where I "am". Fair enough? (I am saying this in a friendly tone, here!)
Actually, to come to YOUR belief, most have had to gone through really tough times, with tribulations almost unbearable. They cannot see anything pertaining to God in this light. So, they flock to a doctrine that appeases them, and find comfort there. so be it. That is between you and your god. And I also say this in a friendly tone.

Quote:
Some of your answers lead to far many more questions.
Well, I am done answering, unless a person has a heart felt desire to learn the Truth. Otherwise, I am clanging symbols together.

Quote:
And I think some things you misunderstood what I was asking.
Sure did.

Quote:
But I will try to go through them all later tonight or over the weekend when I have a chunk of time and am not rushing.
Honestly, save the time. Enjoy it loving one another.

Quote:
In the meantime, thanks for taking the time to answering and sharing your beliefs. I do sincerely appreciate it!
My pleasure. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

If anyone else has a desire to learn, just hit me up, and I will answer. If any of you are set in your ways, and locked in your doctrines,,,,leave me out of it.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:00 AM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,446,446 times
Reputation: 3392
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