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Old 01-28-2011, 11:13 AM
 
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A study of the history of the letters to Timothy and Titus turns up considerable evidence that these letters were written much later after Paul's death circa 65 AD.

Among the clues:

* the descriptions of a highly organized Christian church with deacons and well-defined creeds in 1 Timothy that could not have evolved that quickly during Paul's ministry.

* the fact that Marcion did not have either of the Timothy epistles in his collection of Paul's letters

Also note:

Quote:
1 and 2 Timothy and Titus were definitely pseudonymous (written by a unknown person, passing the writings off as Paul's.) They were written 35 to 85 years after Paul's death. Although such a writer would be considered a forger today, the practice was quite common in the 1st century CE, and was considered acceptable behavior.
And

Quote:
Fr. Raymond E. Brown, a member of the Vatican's Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, was described by Time magazine as "probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S." He has expressed his beliefs concerning the authorship of these epistles:

In his opinion, of the thirteen epistles which say that they were written by Paul, critical scholars have reached a near consensus that seven are Paul's: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans.
Agreement that he did not write:
1 & 2 Timothy and Titus is about 90%
These apparent forgeries would go a long way to explaining the glaring inconsistencies between the authentic Pauline letters that clearly teach predestination and limited atonement and the non-Pauline letters which are more benevolent towards unlimited atonement, chiefly 1 Timothy in which the controversial verse, "who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth" appears. So an explanation emerges for why it appears Paul is talking out of both sides of his mouth, or that he later evolved from a "Calvinist" to a "Universalist": that as universalism started taking hold in the Church as a backlash against the pagan influences filtering into early Christian beliefs, letters being passed off as written by Paul were written in support of unlimited atonement, which of course goes hand-in-hand with universalism. And with an author of the stature of Paul at the letterhead, who would dare question their theology?

Note: it is not my intention to start another endless argument on which is right, ET vs UR, but merely to point out why Pauline doctrine on the question of atonement is so conflicting. In fact, the subject of this post is limited atonement. So if a debate is going to ensue, let it center on limited vs unlimited atonement please.
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Old 01-28-2011, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Germany
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if we begin to question the validity of certain books we can begin to question the whole bible, I think we should accept the common canon, I must admit that I doubt the authencity of Jude but this is my personal opinion, I think we should forbear from question the accepted canon.
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Old 01-28-2011, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
if we begin to question the validity of certain books we can begin to question the whole bible, I think we should accept the common canon, I must admit that I doubt the authencity of Jude but this is my personal opinion
sven, our questioning the authorship of certain books in the Bible is a legitimate endeavor when obvious inconsistencies in theology among one author's writings start cropping up---glaring differences in writing style of various epistles of Paul being just one red flag among the others I listed. These Pauline epistles have been analyzed by computers, as well as examined to death by impartial well-versed scholars who have no ax to grind one way or the other.

Certainly one has to look for rational explanations for the inconsistencies that appear in biblical text eg. verses that support all three destinies of the souls of men, as well as limited and unlimited atonement, not to mention texts that supports pros and cons of all the TULIP theologies. To not do so would be akin to driving along a mountain road in the dark without one's headlights on and saying to one's self, "Why should I question whether there's a curve ahead?"
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Old 01-28-2011, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Germany
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personally I think there is no inconsistency in the epistles of Paul, there are books that have an evil spirit in my opinion, e.g. the apocryphal book of Judith, but none book of the canonic writings appears to have a strange spirit you know what I mean?

as to the question of ET versus UR, the fact that the old testament omits any teaching of eternal punishment is proof enough for me that it is not from God, everything else we cannot know for sure
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Old 01-28-2011, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
as to the question of ET versus UR, the fact that the old testament omits any teaching of eternal punishment is proof enough for me that it is not from God, everything else we cannot know for sure
That IS interesting, especially in light of the fact that nobody in the NT talked more about hell than Jesus Himself, who was God's Voice all through the OT. Why make no mention pre-0 AD and then start talking about it during His earthly ministry?
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Old 01-29-2011, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Germany
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That IS interesting, especially in light of the fact that nobody in the NT talked more about hell than Jesus Himself
it can be challenged that Jesus talked about hell at all, Jesus talked about Gehenna, which is literally a geographical site in Jerusalem
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
So an explanation emerges for why it appears Paul is talking out of both sides of his mouth, or that he later evolved from a "Calvinist" to a "Universalist":
Maybe there is no contradiction at all...

UR is the source of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

There is an elect. (each in his own order) But that elect is not as black and white as Calvismn teaches. It's not about eternal happiness vs eternal doom.

The universal redemption part of UR can be found in Arminianism.
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Old 01-29-2011, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
... the descriptions of a highly organized Christian church with deacons and well-defined creeds in 1 Timothy that could not have evolved that quickly during Paul's ministry. ...
In Acts 6:5 They chose deacons: Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas. Even though the 'phrase' deacon is not used in the English the purpose of that office of ministry is explained in the context.

As for a 'creed', none of todays creeds had even been formed by then. What creed are you suggesting was in Timothy or Titus?
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Old 01-29-2011, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
it can be challenged that Jesus talked about hell at all, Jesus talked about Gehenna, which is literally a geographical site in Jerusalem
Actually, I just meant that Jesus referred more to souls going to a place of torment after death than anyone else in the NT, whereas He did not refer to being tormented after death at all in the OT.


Quote:
The universal redemption part of UR can be found in Arminianism.
I don't understand the statement. UR is universal redemption, isn't it? Sounds like you're saying, "the universal redemption part of universal redemption...."

Quote:
What creed are you suggesting was in Timothy or Titus?
What I am referring to is the extent of the growth of the church and how highly-organized it had become, which is something that can only occur over time as more members are added.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
don't understand the statement. UR is universal redemption, isn't it? Sounds like you're saying, "the universal redemption part of universal redemption...."
I think the difference is that Armianists agree that Jesus died to redeem all men though many men refuse to be redeemed while Calvinists deny that Jesus died for all men

UR is universal reconciliation afaik
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