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Old 01-30-2011, 04:17 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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This is what happens when you allow your brand of Christianity to spiral out of control away from Truth. The gravity of Truth prevails. It also demonstrates that you can't vote to determine Truth and trust that the majority is correct.

FoxNews.com - British Anglicans Preparing Mass Defection to Roman Catholic Church

It's okay to turn towards home, home to Jesus's Church, the Catholic Church.
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Old 01-30-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
This is what happens when you allow your brand of Christianity to spiral out of control away from Truth. The gravity of Truth prevails. It also demonstrates that you can't vote to determine Truth and trust that the majority is correct.

FoxNews.com - British Anglicans Preparing Mass Defection to Roman Catholic Church

It's okay to turn towards home, home to Jesus's Church, the Catholic Church.
Home to me is the heart of God. I recall Jesus saying to a couple of his disciples come see where i stay, i will give you one guess where that was.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:44 PM
 
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"Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."

He was on the road, away from all the dogma; teaching, preaching, and healing the hearts of men.
Will you not let him stay in your house tonight, away from all the wild beasts?
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:31 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Yes, but the Son of Man, before He left His earthly form, left humanity with His Church. He did not, as many believe, leave us a Bible. I choose to go to His Church as He intended. This is the same Church that preserved Jesus's Word in Sacred Traditions and Sacred Writings.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:42 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Yes, but the Son of Man, before He left His earthly form, left humanity with His Church. He did not, as many believe, leave us a Bible. I choose to go to His Church as He intended. This is the same Church that preserved Jesus's Word in Sacred Traditions and Sacred Writings.
Acts chapter 2 tells us a different story. Infact the truth is though he did leave, he also came back, just like he promised he would, "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Acts chapter 2 tells us a different story. Infact the truth is though he did leave, he also came back, just like he promised he would, "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17
He comes everyday, doesn't He?
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
He comes everyday, doesn't He?
He never left!
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:07 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Yes, the Holy Spirit has been with us since Pentecost and occasionally before that. Jesus, the man, God made flesh, left on Good Friday. It is this form of God that walked with the disciples and started Christianity by leaving us His Church.

If God is indeed a triune God, that is devine, spirit and man, they cannot disagree with each other. I think we can agree on that. Do we know that the Holy Spirit is helping form each denomination of Christianity? It would seem that every man creating a new denomination proclaims that he was moved and guided by the Holy Spirit. They can't all be right, can they? So is the Holy Spirit with all these folks that created the 33,000+ denominations? Maybe, in some degree, but the belief divergence of protestant denominations provides me ALL the evidence I need to come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit can NOT possibly be at work all the time when folks claim that It is. So how do we know if the Holy Spirit is working with a person, but not another person. I submit to you that there is no definitive way to know for sure. Folks on boths sides of an doctrinal argument can point to a bible passage and claim proof that he or she is correct. Why, because the Bible doesn't interpret itself. And man on his own, clearly has no consistent ability to interpret it. So can man rely solely on the Bible for truth. The answer is clearly no.

So, what do we know about the Holy Spirit. Jesus breathed the Spirit on the Apostles and they then were told to go out and spread His Word. We do know that the Holy Spirit was clearly with the Apostles. We do know that Jesus said that He would keep that gates of hell from His Church. We have to assume Jesus would protect His Church from falsehoods through the power of the Holy Spirit. Was Jesus talking about the Methodist Church or the Baptist Church or Jehovah Witnesses, or Pentacostals, or the Mormons, the Boston Ave. Presbyterian Church? Or was he talking about the same Church that existed since Jesus walked the earth as a man? The same Church founded in Rome by Peter who Jesus gave the keys to? Yes, I believe it was that one!

Folks, do you believe the tenets of the Nicene Creed that was established in 325 A.D? There's nothing crazy in there. You might not like the word "catholic" in there, but that is lower case meaning universal. Folks, in the fourth century, the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church in town. They basically held the meeting to, once and for all, nail down who Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit actually were and what there relationship to each other were. I am pretty sure most of you agreed with what that council came up with. But what gave them the authority to make that call? They didn't consult the Bible, because it would take several decades later until a group of bishops of the same Christian Church would decide from hundreds of writings what would be included in the Bible. They didn't have problem picking who was going to reside at these meetings because it was just the bishops of the various outposts of the Christian Church who would preside. They were the ONLY authority. The Authority was the Bishops of the Catholic Church. Then orthodox splintered out, then protestantism 500 years after that. Ninety-nine percent of all protestant denominations split off of another protestant faith, not the Catholic Church.

So let's get back to Truth and the gravity which pulls us toward it. Again, there can be only one Truth. If you don't agree with that, then we have nothing else to discuss. If you do, then how do we determine who the keeper of that Truth is. I contend that there is NOTHING to determine. Jesus established a Church and gave it clear authority to His earthly Church starting with Peter. That Church is still here after almost 2000 years. I don't need to know anything else. But don't take my word for it, which I know you won't, but read the writings of the Early Church Fathers and find out what they believed. Read what happened in Nicea, Hippo, and Carthage. Cardinal Newman once said, "to be steeped in history is to cease to be protestant.". Maybe he knew something you don't know. You might check his writings, too.

Peace.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
This is what happens when you allow your brand of Christianity to spiral out of control away from Truth. The gravity of Truth prevails. It also demonstrates that you can't vote to determine Truth and trust that the majority is correct.
But that was precisely what happened at the Council at Nicea in 325 A.D. Clearly, it was a majority vote that determined the "true" nature of God. Had the majority sided with Arius, Christianity would be arian instead of trinitarian today.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Folks, do you believe the tenets of the Nicene Creed that was established in 325 A.D?
Well, now that you ask... No.

Quote:
There's nothing crazy in there.
Well, that's debatable. Let's see... as Thomas Jefferson once put it, "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three, and yet one is not three and three are not one." I've got to admit, he was one smart cookie in that regard.

Quote:
You might not like the word "catholic" in there, but that is lower case meaning universal. Folks, in the fourth century, the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church in town.
It certainly was, and thanks to the Crusades and the Inquisition, it would be for quite some time.

Quote:
I am pretty sure most of you agreed with what that council came up with.
Hmmm. I guess if "most people" agree, then it must be true. So much for truth not being determined by what the majority agrees upon.

Quote:
But what gave them the authority to make that call?
Good question. They certainly weren't being led by revelation, since God evidently decided we didn't need any more of that after the deaths of the Apostles.

Quote:
They didn't consult the Bible, because it would take several decades later until a group of bishops of the same Christian Church would decide from hundreds of writings what would be included in the Bible.
Right, and even when "they" decided what would be included, "they" decided to exclude certain writings that had been considered authoritative back in the second century. Do you have any idea what the second-century or third-century canon looked like?

Quote:
They didn't have problem picking who was going to reside at these meetings because it was just the bishops of the various outposts of the Christian Church who would preside.
Well, of course. But the truly odd thing is that the council wasn't even convened at the request of the Pope, but at the insistence of Constantine, a secular authority, who couldn't have cared less how the vote went, as long as the citizens of his precious empire would stop fighting among themselves. (Maybe Obama should call such a council; then once and for all, Christians could decide on whether we're saved by faith alone or by a combination of faith and works. Then, the representatives who voted with the losing side could have their U.S. citizenship revoked and maybe even be exiled.)

Quote:
They were the ONLY authority. The Authority was the Bishops of the Catholic Church.
I agree. That was the problem.

Quote:
Then orthodox splintered out, then protestantism 500 years after that. Ninety-nine percent of all protestant denominations split off of another protestant faith, not the Catholic Church.
What difference does that make? Whether they split off directly from the Catholic Church or from another Protestant Church that split off from the Catholic Church makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Quote:
Peace.
You too. You've got to realize, juj, that when you start proselytizing, you're going to have to deal with the fallout. I know that if I were to start a thread promoting Mormonism as "Truth" (with a capitol 'T' yet), I could expect the same from you.

Last edited by Katzpur; 01-31-2011 at 09:51 PM..
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