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Old 01-31-2011, 12:47 PM
 
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John 6:37-40, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
37. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" (election)

"and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (free will)

The question is whether "him" in 37 refers to the elect of the first clause, or an entirely different group of non-elect believers who have chosen to come to God of their own free wills. The first clause of 37 and other scriptures suggest this is not possible, as it is the HS who must draw the individual before (s)he can decide to accept Jesus, but Arminianism believes individuals can choose of their own accord. This verse does not answer the question.

39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (election)

40. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Jesus' words suggest that God has two different wills: one for His elect and one for the non-elect i.e. everyone else.

Now if Jesus had said in 40, "For My Father's will is that all who He has given Me will look to the Son and believe in him, and they shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day,” then this would pretty much refute the concept of man using his free will to come to Jesus. But Jesus doesn't say this; He says "everyone", which, if we understand the logical concept of the term, includes all people who ever lived on earth.

In summary, it appears that Jesus is referring to two groups: a "special group of Christians chosen especially for Jesus i.e. His Bride, who are the Elect and who basically have no say in their eternal destiny (no exercise of free will) BUT to be saved; and a second group, possibly the wedding guests who come to Jesus based solely on their own free will choice. This would necessitate God essentially suspending Jesus' words here and elsewhere that "no one can come to Me except the Spirit draws him" in order to accommodate this second group, or that in some way Jesus is not referring to this second group when He speaks these words.

It appears both theologies are correct.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:12 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Jesus' Words Support Both Election AND Free Will in this way....

Believers are by election, humans are free to reject.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
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The unbeliever has a dead heart that is referred to as a heart of stone. The bible paints the unbeliever as dead in His sin. He has as much ability to choose to become a believer as a dead man has the choice to come to life.

The bible tells us that we are adopted by God. Now you tell me of a case where a child chooses his adoptive parents.

The bible tells us the "things of God are nonsense to the NATURAL man". So do you believe that a man can choose to become a Christian when the whole thing is nonsense to him?

The bible clearly states that "We were choosen in HIM {Jesus} before the foundation of the world.

No the will of sinful men has nothing to do with salvation. It's all of God and None of myself. We are not saved by our works and making a decision to become a Christian is works for sure. Have you ever thought of why so many who believe that a man can choose to become a Christian also think that somehow a Christian can lose his salvation? Well it goes together of course because if we can choose of ourself then we can change our mind and choose to turn away from God. Both of these ideas are totally unbiblical and are based on a faulty idea of Man's position in relation to a Holy God. The pride of Man hates to admit that we are totally powerless to help ourselves and to this man the gospel is an offence. It's only through God's grace that He has chosen me to believe and trust in Him. This He has done by causing me to be born again and be givin a new heart. A heart of flesh. No man ever, anywhere or anytime will have that choice to make. It's an operation of the sovereign reign of God in this universe.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:55 PM
 
138 posts, read 139,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
37. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" (election)

"and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (free will)

The question is whether "him" in 37 refers to the elect of the first clause, or an entirely different group of non-elect believers who have chosen to come to God of their own free wills. The first clause of 37 and other scriptures suggest this is not possible, as it is the HS who must draw the individual before (s)he can decide to accept Jesus, but Arminianism believes individuals can choose of their own accord. This verse does not answer the question.

39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (election)

40. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Jesus' words suggest that God has two different wills: one for His elect and one for the non-elect i.e. everyone else.

Now if Jesus had said in 40, "For My Father's will is that all who He has given Me will look to the Son and believe in him, and they shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day,” then this would pretty much refute the concept of man using his free will to come to Jesus. But Jesus doesn't say this; He says "everyone", which, if we understand the logical concept of the term, includes all people who ever lived on earth.

In summary, it appears that Jesus is referring to two groups: a "special group of Christians chosen especially for Jesus i.e. His Bride, who are the Elect and who basically have no say in their eternal destiny (no exercise of free will) BUT to be saved; and a second group, possibly the wedding guests who come to Jesus based solely on their own free will choice. This would necessitate God essentially suspending Jesus' words here and elsewhere that "no one can come to Me except the Spirit draws him" in order to accommodate this second group, or that in some way Jesus is not referring to this second group when He speaks these words.

It appears both theologies are correct.

There is no free will in the will of God. The gospel decides who is chosen or not when preached to sinners. Those who were chosen will hear the voice of God, which is the truth. The others will reject the gospel and they were chosen to be sinners.

If they didn't get to hear the gospel, they weren't chosen to hear it and they will die as sinners. Everyone is saved from their flesh when they die so it doesn't make any difference what kind of sinner you were. In God's eye's, all sinners are disobedient to his laws and commandments and their penalty is death. Once they die, their soul remains in God where it's been since creation. When a new body is available, then they will experience their heavenly existence in an earthly body.
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Old 01-31-2011, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
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The incarnate is not re-incarnate, for the existence of it's somehow temporal paradox.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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If God is "no respecter of persons," He does not "elect" some to be saved and others to be damned. He offers salvation to anyone who seeks it.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
If God is "no respecter of persons," He does not "elect" some to be saved and others to be damned. He offers salvation to anyone who seeks it.
The bible tells us that no one seeks it. It's only by God drawing them to himself that men seek Him. I really don't know why this concept that is taught all over the bible is so difficult for saved people to accept as the truth. Even in your statement that God does not elect is very hard for me to understand when the bible refers to God's people as the ELECT. The chosen race, The adopted, The children of the promise. These are but a fraction of hundreds of teachings in the bible regarding who are the children of God and how they became the children of God. The pride of man does not want to accept that the natural man is at emnity with God. He wants nothing to do with God and the gospel is an offence to that man period.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
The bible tells us that no one seeks it. It's only by God drawing them to himself that men seek Him. I really don't know why this concept that is taught all over the bible is so difficult for saved people to accept as the truth. Even in your statement that God does not elect is very hard for me to understand when the bible refers to God's people as the ELECT. The chosen race, The adopted, The children of the promise. These are but a fraction of hundreds of teachings in the bible regarding who are the children of God and how they became the children of God. The pride of man does not want to accept that the natural man is at emnity with God. He wants nothing to do with God and the gospel is an offence to that man period.
I'm not talking about the person who wants nothing to do with God. I'm talking about the ones who do. Are you saying that if a person sincerely seeks to know God, there's a good chance that God is simply going to turn His back on him because he wasn't on the "Elect List"?
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:37 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,683,103 times
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
If God is "no respecter of persons," He does not "elect" some to be saved and others to be damned. He offers salvation to anyone who seeks it.
This is true. Election does not even refer to salvation. Election is the sovereign will of God for the church-age believer (Israel has its own election). Election means that God wills His highest and best for every believer. People are not elected to be saved. Rather, believers are elected to receive God's highest blessings. Whether they actually receive them depends on their decisions to grow up spiritually. God's will is that the believer advance to spiritual maturity so that he can receive fantastic blessings which glorify God in the angelic conflict. With election comes special privileges. Election includes equal privilege - the royal priesthood of the believer, and equal opportunity - logistical grace support - the beans and bullets concept which keeps the believer alive in enemy territory - the devils world, so that he can advance spiritually.

Because God has revealed Himself in His creation as well as though His gospel, man is able to seek after God. I like what Paul said in his Mars Hill Sermon.

Acts 17:22 'And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, ''Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23] ''For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an alter with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24] ''The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things; 26] and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, 27] that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Eternal salvation is available for all who will simply respond positively toward the gospel message.

Last edited by Mike555; 02-01-2011 at 01:05 AM..
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,159,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'm not talking about the person who wants nothing to do with God. I'm talking about the ones who do. Are you saying that if a person sincerely seeks to know God, there's a good chance that God is simply going to turn His back on him because he wasn't on the "Elect List"?
Not at all. What I'm saying is that if a person sincerely seeks to know God it's because God has drawn that person to Himself and that person is Elect. It's a little more complicated than that in that a person must be seeking the true God and must be seeking because of hearing the Gospel. I have met many people who are seeking a god but not The God. You also have those who are seeking after some kind of benefits they imagine come along with being a believer. The true seeker sees the light and is "Converted" from one who was dead to one who is now alive to the things of God.

I once was a member of a Baptist church that became a "Seeker sensitive church". I noticed right away that the paster stopped preaching the gospel. When I asked him why? he replied that the real nuts and bolts of the gospel message would offend these seekers and they might stop attending. I told him that the only witness we are to give to the unsaved is the example of our lives and the preaching of the gospel. The bible tells us very clearly the the Gospel message is an offence to the natural man. However God uses this message to bring His children into the Kingdom.

A prime doctorine of the reformed church is "Irresistable grace". That means that all of God's elect from all time will be saved and brought into God's kingdom. Jesus pronounces this in the "Our Father" prayer. "Thy will BE done on earth as it is in heaven".
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