Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Kids have the freedom to defy their parents, but that should not be confused with "bad" or "Evil" a child often defys a parent out of ignorance which is not inherantly immoral.
Jesus said forgive them "for they know not what they do"
"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all"
One thing we can learn is concerning the nature of the above act. We get the implication that God went and grabbed us all against out will and threw us down into a pit of bondage. But it is actually like this. God knows what must happen for our perfection to occur, so what must happen, of course, must happen.
Take a butterfly, a butterfly appears to be in bondage of the cocoon, and eventually you can see it struggle and struggle to break free.
What happens if an ignorant child goes with all good intentions and rips the cocoon open? Most likely the buttefly dies. That is all that's really going on there. It is actually merciful to let the process of the butterfy take it's course.
Phaze i'm not trying to figure out what sin or isn't so much,(i'll leave that to fundamental christianity),if we were created short of being perfect, obviously this was not an oversight of God.
We have to at least ask ourselves the question, was Adam included in the all men that were bound over to disobedience ?, and if so, the purpose as got to be Christ. At what point in God's mind were all me bound over to disobedience ? . The "So that he may have mercy on them all" reads like a done deal to me too.
Those that received the law, were bound over to disobedience.
Through Christ, those bound by that law, are freed from it.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Those without law, can come unto the law of Christ, without being bound by the previous law.
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Those that received the law, were bound over to disobedience.
Through Christ, those bound by that law, are freed from it.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Those without law, can come unto the law of Christ, without being bound by the previous law.
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Sorry Sciota that is not what Romans 11 says at all . Whatever we were disobedient to does not change anything, we were disobedient whether it was to the law or God himself, and thus all of us were concluded in unbelief/disobedience.
Just as you (You, me and Irene) who were at one time disobedientto God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience. Romans 11:30
Verse 31
so they too(Israel) have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
Verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all(You,me,Irene and Israel).
Paul...are you implying that Romans 11 is talking about pagan Gentiles?
Ken they can be labelled what you choose, i believe Romans 11 is as much about all Gentiles (regardless of their unbelief/disobedience) as it is all Israel.
We know from verse 5 that at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace, but we also know from verse 12 that all Israel are eventually included.....that their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!To me it is obvious these referred to here are not the same as referred to in verse 5, because the remnant in verse 5 never lost anything, but obtained Christ by grace. The rest whose hearts were hardened are those referred to in verse 12, who will be those who are the full inclusion.
Ken they can be labelled what you choose, i believe Romans 11 is as much about all Gentiles (regardless of their unbelief/disobedience) as it is all Israel.
We know from verse 5 that at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace, but we also know from verse 12 that all Israel are eventually included.....that their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!To me it is obvious these referred to here are not the same as referred to in verse 5, because the remnant in verse 5 never lost anything, but obtained Christ by grace. The rest whose hearts were hardened are those referred to in verse 12, who will be those who are the full inclusion.
Paul...the directive of Romans period is that of the "sojourners".....the lost 10 Tribes....Gentile Israelites....they were bound to the law. So assuming that Paul talking about anyone else is inconsistent. It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes). Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." We can infer that the 10 Northern tribes bring with them the people they've been mixed with (again, per Isaiah). But, Romans is a very corporate book and seems to me to be answering a number of questions about switching from Corporate Group 1 (people under Adam, or Sin, or the Law) to Corporate Group 2 (people under Christ). The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God was going to pull off what He promised with these two prophets. And indeed, it has remained unclear to this day because Dispensationalists say that the gentiles were not absorbed into the 10 Northern tribes and the Covenant Theologians don't think that the Law was completely done away with.
Paul, there is no doubt that because of the salvation of Israel, did God seal His covenant with them, inclusive of those who were the "hangers on," but by no means can you conclude that those "hangers on," were bound to disobedience like Israel, fully was. That would be stepping out from the theme Paul was addressing, and rendering the totality of the argument you represent, eisegetical.
The Maker of all human beings (GOD) is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.
This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units. This defect has been technically termed "Sub-sequential Internal Non-Morality," or more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.
Some of the symptoms include:
1. Loss of direction
2. Foul vocal emissions
3. Amnesia of origin
4. Lack of peace and joy
5. Selfish or violent behavior
6. Depression or confusion in the mental component
7. Fearfulness
8. Idolatry
9. Rebellion
The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.
The Repair Technician, JESUS, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.
The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.
Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure.
Next, download ATONEMENT from the Repair Technician, Jesus, into the heart component. No matter how big or
small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control
Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.
WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded. For free emergency service, call on Jesus.
DANGER: The human being units not responding to this recall action will have to be scrapped in the furnace. The
SIN defect will not be permitted to enter Heaven so as to prevent contamination of that facility.
Thank you for your attention! - GOD
P.S. Please assist where possible by notifying others of this important recall notice, and you may contact the Father any time by 'knee mail'!
Paul...the directive of Romans period is that of the "sojourners".....the lost 10 Tribes....Gentile Israelites....they were bound to the law. So assuming that Paul talking about anyone else is inconsistent. It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes). Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." We can infer that the 10 Northern tribes bring with them the people they've been mixed with (again, per Isaiah). But, Romans is a very corporate book and seems to me to be answering a number of questions about switching from Corporate Group 1 (people under Adam, or Sin, or the Law) to Corporate Group 2 (people under Christ). The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God was going to pull off what He promised with these two prophets. And indeed, it has remained unclear to this day because Dispensationalists say that the gentiles were not absorbed into the 10 Northern tribes and the Covenant Theologians don't think that the Law was completely done away with.
Paul, there is no doubt that because of the salvation of Israel, did God seal His covenant with them, inclusive of those who were the "hangers on," but by no means can you conclude that those "hangers on," were bound to disobedience like Israel, fully was. That would be stepping out from the theme Paul was addressing, and rendering the totality of the argument you represent, eisegetical.
I'm sorry Ken but i do not see that , i see those chosen and having obtained it by grace in verse 5, those who for a time didn't obtain it by grace, but eventually do, and the Gentiles too.
To me it's absolutely clear verses 5 and 12 are talking about Israel, and Israel only, some at that present time that obtained grace (verse 5),and those who eventually obtain it verse(12). When he's referring to Gentiles thoughout the rest of that chapter, he is referring solely to us who were not part of the commonwealth of Israel.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
