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Old 02-02-2011, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I'm sorry Ken but i do not see that , i see those chosen and having obtained it by grace in verse 5, those who for a time didn't obtain it by grace, but eventually do, and the Gentiles too.

To me it's absolutely clear verses 5 and 12 are talking about Israel, and Israel only, some at that present time that obtained grace (verse 5),and those who eventually obtain it verse(12). When he's referring to Gentiles thoughout the rest of that chapter, he is referring solely to us who were not part of the commonwealth of Israel.
Paul...you don't see what you are doing...you are imposing your own thoughts onto the text and ripping it from its thematic order. The theme has never changed since chapter 1...the salvation of Israel (his directed audience), will in turn bless the pagans (those already saved among whom he is directing Romans to), who are without law....who were never dead, who never sinned....according to God. How can you transgress, or disobey something that which you were never part of? That is Paul's major premise of the pagans to the Ethnic Israelite conversions in the Roman Empire...they, pagan Gentiles never transgressed God. Israel did...all 12 tribes. All his letters are riddled with these themes. It would be safe to guess that 10-15% of his congregations were pagan conversions...the rest were Law abiding Ethnic Israelite Gentiles, descendants of the 10 Tribes who were dispersed in the Assyrian invasion. But if I were to base the opinion that pagan Gentiles were the directed audience of his letters, off Scripture...it would be next to none. I am merely guessing this because it is obvious there were..... now read closely my dear friend....

I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.

The remnant are those from Israel...not Gentiles...or pagan conversions that is...but from Israel...12 tribes...144k...remember the multitude John saw in Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...these are the pagan conversions....

The way I understand it, and I may be wrong (and I know there is disagreement on the nuances of this because I can think of at least two other alternate explanations I've heard), is that in passages before the Assyrian invasion "Gentiles" means people other than Hebrews. When that dispersion was completed, Hosea's perspective tended to rule, which is that they'd been absorbed into the Gentiles so fully that you couldn't tell the difference (of course, God knew, but the Jews wouldn't be able to tell so easily). So, calling them Gentiles was a slander. They'd become just like the rest of the animals. However, Hosea clearly says that on day they'd be brought back in. Isaiah promises that when they were the Gentiles they'd been mixed with would be brought in as well.
This is the preliminary focus of Romans.

In my opinion of course
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:58 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul...you don't see what you are doing...you are imposing your own thoughts onto the text and ripping it from its thematic order. The theme has never changed since chapter 1...the salvation of Israel (his directed audience), will in turn bless the pagans (those already saved among whom he is directing Romans to), who are without law....who were never dead, who never sinned....according to God. How can you transgress, or disobey something that which you were never part of? That is Paul's major premise of the pagans to the Ethnic Israelite conversions in the Roman Empire...they, pagan Gentiles never transgressed God. Israel did...all 12 tribes. All his letters are riddled with these themes. It would be safe to guess that 10-15% of his congregations were pagan conversions...the rest were Law abiding Ethnic Israelite Gentiles, descendants of the 10 Tribes who were dispersed in the Assyrian invasion. But if I were to base the opinion that pagan Gentiles were the directed audience of his letters, off Scripture...it would be next to none. I am merely guessing this because it is obvious there were..... now read closely my dear friend....

I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.

The remnant are those from Israel...not Gentiles...or pagan conversions that is...but from Israel...12 tribes...144k...remember the multitude John saw in Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...these are the pagan conversions....

The way I understand it, and I may be wrong (and I know there is disagreement on the nuances of this because I can think of at least two other alternate explanations I've heard), is that in passages before the Assyrian invasion "Gentiles" means people other than Hebrews. When that dispersion was completed, Hosea's perspective tended to rule, which is that they'd been absorbed into the Gentiles so fully that you couldn't tell the difference (of course, God knew, but the Jews wouldn't be able to tell so easily). So, calling them Gentiles was a slander. They'd become just like the rest of the animals. However, Hosea clearly says that on day they'd be brought back in. Isaiah promises that when they were the Gentiles they'd been mixed with would be brought in as well.
This is the preliminary focus of Romans.

In my opinion of course

Ken when you understand it's the law of sin and death as well as the commandment(that killed us) that we are set free from,your point carries no weight.


12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. .
Romans 2 .

It's quite clear here that those who were not under the law given to Israel , were under a law written on their own hearts, which their own thoughts either accused or defended them(in otherwords they knew when they were doing what is right and what is wrong). So for this reason alone Ken i cannot accept your view point.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all"

I do not see this meaning that God forces people to be disobedient, but simply as a declaration of everyone being disobedient. Every offender is bound together by their sins, like criminals are bound together in prison because of their crimes. They committed the crime and the authority put them in prison. The authority didn't force them to commit the crime, they did it themselves, and the authority locked them up. So, Jews and Gentiles are both equally guilty, and God's offer of salvation thought faith applies to them both equally. "All" means Jews and Gentiles, not each and every individual.
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:47 AM
 
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IA,finn.some of the end-timers even say the great trib. is for the salvation of the nation of Israel.I know God has a covenant with them,but why wouldn't it be esp. for those who don't believe in Him,like the gentiles?
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It's quite clear here that those who were not under the law given to Israel , were under a law written on their own hearts, which their own thoughts either accused or defended them(in otherwords they knew when they were doing what is right and what is wrong). So for this reason alone Ken i cannot accept your view point.
Paul...in Rom 2 it said that those who had not the Law would be a law unto themselves...i.e. those now coming into Christ and fulfilling the Law.
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
That's interesting Phaze, never looked at it that way before,and it's also perfectly reasonable to ask or say "how can something perfect go wrong ?" . So are you saying Adam and Eve were created imperfect ?. I know it's traditionally believed Adam and Eve fell from perfection through a free will decision or by choice, but like you said "how can something perfect go wrong ?".Can free will mar perfection ?
that is a great question alright,maybe we need to understand that without God we can never be perfect,when Adam turns from God then that is the start of his imperfection,but a choice i think it is!!!!

according to the vedas,when a living entity leaves the spiritual sky,he is pure and does not have a gross material body but a subtle body made of pure intelligence,and exist's on the highest material planet's,then once the living entity start's desiring material nature,he starts to loose his purity,and accumulates karma,then in time due to their desires they become forgetfull of their original nature,and when we are ignorant we loose our spiritual awarness and perfection,although it is always there,lying dorment,but material nature is so strong that even the strongest minds fixed on controlling the sense's find it hard to overcome her.kinda reminds me of the adam and eve incident.

whats innevitale for all beings is that we return from here we came,weve existed there for eternity,and all the billions of lifetimes spent on the material platform are just a blink in the eternity of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just comin from a slightl different perspective,have a peacfull one pal!!!!
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Ken when you understand it's the law of sin and death as well as the commandment(that killed us) that we are set free from,your point carries no weight.
I don't follow...the law of sin and death has nothing to do with the Mosaic, it has everything to do with Adam's transgression. The Mosaic was added to, to give the realization that they are under the law of sin and death, like Adam.
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:24 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't follow...the law of sin and death has nothing to do with the Mosaic, it has everything to do with Adam's transgression. The Mosaic was added to, to give the realization that they are under the law of sin and death, like Adam.
No it doesn't, the fact of the matter is whether a law was given or not on stone, it does not mean that that law does not exist,the proof of this being the law written on our hearts. I believe without doubt God wrote the requirements of the law on our hearts,and he left Israel in no doubt about those requirements, by setting them in stone(basically the law was in their face).

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.Romans 4:15


When God spoke this to Cain, Cain knew perfectly well what God was saying to him through the law that was written on his heart. God was not speaking over is head


Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:6
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I believe without doubt God wrote the requirements of the law on our hearts,and he left Israel in no doubt about those requirements, by setting them in stone(basically the law was in their face).
Do you have scripture to back up this belief Paul that the law written on our hearts, a new covenant characteristic, preceded Christ?
And how is this law, separate from, the law fulfilled by Christ?
I will accept 2nd Temple Literature, Pseudepigrapha, and the Apocrypha as well.

Quote:
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.Romans 4:15
Like I said, this is evident when they believe on Christ...yes, that law becomes written For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified....but Paul is clear there is no "law" for the pagan (in unbelief) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law

Quote:
When God spoke this to Cain, Cain knew perfectly well what God was saying to him through the law that was written on his heart. God was not speaking over is head
Cain knew the law! Adam was given a law, he transgressed.....are you implying that the "law" is the Mosaic?
That is what I am getting at with you....but you haven't given me a straight answer...maybe I never asked

Quote:
But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:6
A question....how did Cain know what was right in God's eyes? Please don't say the law was written in his heart...you have no scripture to back that up Paul.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-03-2011 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:14 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Do you have scripture to back up this belief Paul? I will accept 2nd Temple Literature, Pseudepigrapha, and the Apocrypha as well.



Like I said, this is evident when they believe on Christ...yes, that law becomes written....but Paul is clear there is no "law" for the pagan (in unbelief).



Cain knew the law! Adam was given a law, he transgressed.....are you implying that the "law" is the Mosaic? That is what I am getting at with you....but you haven't given me a straight answer...maybe I never asked



A question....how did Cain know what was right?
So Ken the requirements written on the hearts of man are only known to him when he believes ? Is this what you are saying ?.

I dispute that and say without doubt that it is referring to a law that is written on the heart of every man and woman. Ask an atheist whether it is right or wrong to murder ?,his conscience will bear witness to the truth of the law written in on his heart that it is infact wrong to murder.This is clearly what Paul is saying in Romans 2:12-16

A read of Romans 7 will also verify that that our inward man delights in the law of God,there's also the law of sin and death too. And the very commandment that put the Jew to death, also put the gentile to death who did not have the law given to him on stone. The gentile without the commandent written on his heart would never have known and recognized what sin is.

The Gentile is as much dead in his sin and trespasses as the Jew, and this can only be by so by the commandment written on our heart and the commandment written on stone being one and the same thing.2 different commandments did not put to death 2 different people.
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