U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-03-2011, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,995,798 times
Reputation: 420

Advertisements

Moderator cut: edit/reference to moderation

In passages before the Assyrian invasion "Gentiles" means people other than Hebrews. When that dispersion was completed, Hosea's perspective tended to rule, which is that they'd been absorbed into the Gentiles so fully that you couldn't tell the difference (of course, God knew, but the Jews wouldn't be able to tell so easily). So, calling them Gentiles was a slander. They'd become just like the rest of the animals. However, Hosea clearly says that on day they'd be brought back in. Isaiah promises that when they were the Gentiles they'd been mixed with would be brought in as well.

It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes). Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." We can infer that the 10 Northern tribes bring with them the people they've been mixed with (again, per Isaiah). But, Romans is a very corporate book and seems to me to be answering a number of questions about switching from Corporate Group 1 (people under Adam, or Sin, or the Law) to Corporate Group 2 (people under Christ). The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God was going to pull off what He promised with these two prophets.

I did a study of the word gowy #1471 Old Testament,which is translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People, and also the word ethnos #1484 NT, which is translated the same, Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People.

That study seemed to point to Israel (all 12 tribes) as the ones being referred to and not to some Non-Covenant people as we have thought applied to the words, Nations, Gentiles, Heathen.

John 10:16: Jesus is talking to Judah...the "other sheep" he is referring to is probably the Northern tribes of Israel.

Matt 28:19..Go teach all Nations (Gr. ethnos=translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People) again is referring to the other tribes of Israel.

Romans 1:16: "also to the Greeks".
Again, this to the tribes of Israel that had scattered to Greece.

Romans 2:9-10: "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" (again the word ethnos) same as above.

Gal.3:28: This one is good, but couldn't it just be about the regathering of ALL Israel? No difference between the Jews and the other tribes of Israel? The rejoining of the two sticks into one stick??

Ezekiel 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Col. 3:11: I have read those that say the "Scythian's" are part of the northern tribes.

And the Northern tribes were considered barbarians by the Jews.

If the Gentiles are all non-Israelites, then the inspired writers of the New Testament epistles misidentified their audience. The audience Hebrews to its writer is inarguable, in fact, Hebrews 8 quotes Hosea – a prophet to the dispersed House of Israel - directly. The audience of Romans were Israelites (Romans 4:1, Romans 4:16.) The Corinthians to whom Paul wrote were Israelites (1 Corinthians 10:1) but were also called Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:2)

The target of the ministry of Jesus and His disciples were the Gentiles; the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who were scattered among the nations. They had become uncircumsized heathen - "not a people." Though "gentilized," the diaspora was to be once again a people Hosea 1:10, and restored with the remnant of Judah as the bride. The remnant of Israel, found in 144,000, is described by John in Revelation 14 as the tribes of Israel.

I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth... (Hosea 2:19-21)

So....the big question...who are the REAL Gentiles?
You and me?

Hosea 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely

Last edited by june 7th; 02-03-2011 at 08:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-03-2011, 05:51 PM
 
Location: US
23,157 posts, read 11,800,462 times
Reputation: 1380
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Moderator cut: orphaned

In passages before the Assyrian invasion "Gentiles" means people other than Hebrews. When that dispersion was completed, Hosea's perspective tended to rule, which is that they'd been absorbed into the Gentiles so fully that you couldn't tell the difference (of course, God knew, but the Jews wouldn't be able to tell so easily). So, calling them Gentiles was a slander. They'd become just like the rest of the animals. However, Hosea clearly says that on day they'd be brought back in. Isaiah promises that when they were the Gentiles they'd been mixed with would be brought in as well.

It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes). Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." We can infer that the 10 Northern tribes bring with them the people they've been mixed with (again, per Isaiah). But, Romans is a very corporate book and seems to me to be answering a number of questions about switching from Corporate Group 1 (people under Adam, or Sin, or the Law) to Corporate Group 2 (people under Christ). The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God was going to pull off what He promised with these two prophets.

I did a study of the word gowy #1471 Old Testament,which is translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People, and also the word ethnos #1484 NT, which is translated the same, Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People.

That study seemed to point to Israel (all 12 tribes) as the ones being referred to and not to some Non-Covenant people as we have thought applied to the words, Nations, Gentiles, Heathen.

John 10:16: Jesus is talking to Judah...the "other sheep" he is referring to is probably the Northern tribes of Israel.

Matt 28:19..Go teach all Nations (Gr. ethnos=translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People) again is referring to the other tribes of Israel.

Romans 1:16: "also to the Greeks".
Again, this to the tribes of Israel that had scattered to Greece.

Romans 2:9-10: "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" (again the word ethnos) same as above.

Gal.3:28: This one is good, but couldn't it just be about the regathering of ALL Israel? No difference between the Jews and the other tribes of Israel? The rejoining of the two sticks into one stick??

Ezekiel 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Col. 3:11: I have read those that say the "Scythian's" are part of the northern tribes.

And the Northern tribes were considered barbarians by the Jews.

If the Gentiles are all non-Israelites, then the inspired writers of the New Testament epistles misidentified their audience. The audience Hebrews to its writer is inarguable, in fact, Hebrews 8 quotes Hosea – a prophet to the dispersed House of Israel - directly. The audience of Romans were Israelites (Romans 4:1, Romans 4:16.) The Corinthians to whom Paul wrote were Israelites (1 Corinthians 10:1) but were also called Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:2)

The target of the ministry of Jesus and His disciples were the Gentiles; the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who were scattered among the nations. They had become uncircumsized heathen - "not a people." Though "gentilized," the diaspora was to be once again a people Hosea 1:10, and restored with the remnant of Judah as the bride. The remnant of Israel, found in 144,000, is described by John in Revelation 14 as the tribes of Israel.

I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth... (Hosea 2:19-21)

So....the big question...who are the REAL Gentiles?
You and me?

Hosea 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely
Pretty Deep....

Last edited by june 7th; 02-03-2011 at 08:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 08:29 PM
 
14,684 posts, read 7,466,803 times
Reputation: 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Pretty Deep....
Or, an act of stretching.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 08:39 PM
 
1,964 posts, read 4,158,275 times
Reputation: 1596
the real gentiles are the ones who abide by the Noachide Code.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,995,798 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Or, an act of stretching.
Prove that it isn't....I am always open to studying this further, but from what I have seen of your one liners and assumptions, this kind of study may be out of your league.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 08:43 PM
 
31,384 posts, read 29,091,951 times
Reputation: 14816
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

So....the big question...who are the REAL Gentiles?
You and me?
This is really simple, if you are not a Jew, you are a Gentile or in Hebrew Gym.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 09:01 PM
 
14,684 posts, read 7,466,803 times
Reputation: 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Prove that it isn't....I am always open to studying this further, but from what I have seen of your one liners and assumptions, this kind of study may be out of your league.
As was 1 Timothy 2:4, if I remember correctly?
Which you, failed to prove otherwise.


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Status: "RIP Roxy and April" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
16,270 posts, read 19,541,583 times
Reputation: 37680
Gentiles are non-Jews. Very simple.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
19,480 posts, read 18,709,139 times
Reputation: 8299
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
John 10:16: Jesus is talking to Judah...the "other sheep" he is referring to is probably the Northern tribes of Israel.
I don't believe it is necessarily to the Northern tribes, but it could not have been anyone other than the children of Israel. In other words, it could not have been the Gentiles because Jesus made it clear that His own mission was specifically to the house of Israel. He said that His "other sheep" would hear his "voice," not merely his "message," as it would later be spread by the Apostles. And yet the "other sheep" were not of the same fold as the ones He made the statement to, so they had become separated.

Quote:
Gal.3:28
Quote:
: This one is good, but couldn't it just be about the regathering of ALL Israel? No difference between the Jews and the other tribes of Israel? The rejoining of the two sticks into one stick??

Ezekiel 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
A "stick" generally referred to a written record of a group of people, not to the people themselves. It would have to be two written records joined together to become one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-03-2011, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 9,371,432 times
Reputation: 8822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
This is really simple, if you are not a Jew, you are a Gentile or in Hebrew Gym.
Yep, that's right. It's just like the Scots. There is Scottish and everything else is Crrrrrap.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top