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It is Jesus Christ who created the universe. Only God can create the universe.
The basic meaning of the word "universe" is "everything that exists." As such, this would include the Creator Himself since God does exist. Likewise, the heavenly realm in which God exists would also be part of that "universe", but would we think that such realm was ever created? The scriptures give us reason to conclude, that just as God is uncreated, likewise, the invisible heavens in which he exists was never created.
However, in application, the word "universe" is often used as to mean a subset of the full "universe". I assume that by "universe" the material universe is meant, not actually everything that exists.
Yes, only the God and Father of Jesus did create the material universe (The universe itself would include God and his realm of being, which was never created); the Bible itself, however, never presents Jesus as the creator of the material universe.
That's not true. Simply refer to and understand what Phil 2:5-8 says.
Phil 2:5 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equalty with God a thing to be grasped. 7] but emptied Himself (restricted the independent use of His deity during His first advent), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likness of men. 8] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
As Phil 2:5-8 states, Jesus Christ existed as God, and became a member of the human race, and went to the cross where He paid the penalty for man's sins. Not in His deity, but in His humanity.
Paul did not say that Jesus existed as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Paul did not say that Jesus existed as a person of three alleged persons of God. Paul certainly said nothing about God as existing as three persons or individuals. Again, we find the trinitarian uses what has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into the scriptures in order to make the scripture appear to support the added-on assumptions.
It would make no sense for Jesus to "not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped", if Jesus was indeed "God", for he would have no need to grasp for that which he already was. It is obvious that in the phrase "equality with God" that the word "God" does not mean three persons, but one person, and that Jesus was not seeking to be equal to that one person. Likewise, in Philippians 2:11, "God, the Father," applies the word "God", not to three persons, but one person. -- Philippians 2:11.
Jesus did indeed exist in the form [external appearance] of his God, since he existed as with the celestial glory of a mighty being before he became flesh. Likewise, when he found in himself in form [external appearance] of a man, in the likeness of man, he was such, not in that he actually was sinful flesh as man in general from Adam was, but because suffered and died as though he were sinful flesh.
We read that Jesus was in the “form (Greek, Morphe: Strong’s #3444) of theos” before coming to the earth. (Philippians 2:6) Nevertheless, it is but an assumption to read into this traditional definition often given to the expression "divine nature". The Greek word morphe has the meaning of:
The word relates, not to what a person "is" in being or substance, but rather to the external appearance. At best, it could be understood as a god-like appearance, as contrasted with his external appearance in the likeness of a bond servant, in the likeness of sinful flesh, as though he were under the bondage of corruption. The external appearance spoken of here is contrasted with the “external appearance” of a bond-servant, one in slavery to sin, the likeness of man — sinful flesh — in bondage to moral corruption. -- Philippians 2:7,8; Romans 8:3,20,21.
Remembering that forms of the word Greek word often transliterated as “theos” in the Bible is based on the Hebrew usage of forms of the word often transliterated as EL, and taken in the context of Philippians 2:6, we can conclude that the "external appearance" of theos refers to the external appearance of Jesus before he was in the days of his flesh as though he were God Himself (although he was not the Almighty in reality) as differientiated from the outward appearance of a human enslaved to sin. Jesus, although he had that external appearance, a glory that make him appear like God Himself, Jesus did not aspire to be equal to God, but emptied himself that glory, and became in the outward appearance of a slave, as though he were in bondage to corruption and sin as all men are who are dying in Adam.
The Greek word often transliterated as "morphe" is paralleled with the word transliterated as "homoioma", which is usually translated as "likeness". Jesus was in the likeness of men, who are bond-servants, who are born into the world under bondage of corruption God that placed upon men due to Adam's sin, from which Jesus died in order to deliver the creation from. (Romans 8:21; 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) Thus, Jesus was born into this world, not under the bondage, but in the likeness of that bondage, to pay the price for sin. Jesus was born into this world, not with sinful flesh (flesh of sin), but he was born into this world with "likeness" that flesh (Romans 8:3), for he who was without sin was made sin for the world of sinners. (2 Corinthians 5:21) Being in the outward appearance, or likeness, of sinful flesh, does not mean that he was actually sinful, or that he actually had flesh of sin, but that he had the appearance of all men whose flesh was sinful, since he suffered as though he were under the condemnation of sin. Though he was rich [in the glory he had with his Father before he came to be in the days of his flesh -- John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40], yet for your sakes he became poor, taking the form of a slave, 'in the likeness of sinful flesh' (Romans 8:3), that is, he suffered for our sins, and sin's condemnation by means of his death, as the offsetting, corresponding, price for all condemned in Adam -- Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 2:9], that you through his poverty might become rich. (2 Corinthians 8:9) It should be apparent that “morphe” in Philippians 2:6,7 is not directly speaking about two different planes of existence, although indirectly such is implied, but not in the sense that Jesus had both planes of existence at once, as some teach in their "hypostatic union" theory which they like to add to and read into many scriptures.
In 2 Cor 13:14 Paul closes with this. 'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God (the Father), and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
The scripture does speak of grace, love and fellowship; and it speaks of these three in connection with "Jesus Christ", "God" and "Holy Spirit" respectively. Of course, "grace", "love", and "fellowship" are certainly not persons of "God". Nor does Paul write that Jesus and God's Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) are persons of "God". The word "God" in the expression "love of God" refers, not to three persons, but only to one person, that is, "God our Father." -- 2 Corinthians 1:2.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort. -- World English.
In Hebrews 1 Paul is quoting from different passages in the Psalms in which God the Father is referring to Jesus Christ.
The Son of whom the Father is speaking in Hebrews 1 is Himself God the Son, the Second Person of the trinity.
WHO BUT GOD CAN CREATE THE UNIVERSE? The answer is NO ONE.
Col 1:16 reveals clearly that it was Jesus Christ who created the universe. And Hebrews 1:10-12 reveals this as well.
Psalm 102:25-27, clearly refers to God. In Hebrews 1:10-12, Paul quotes Psalm 102:25-27 and applies it to Jesus Christ. His intent is to show that Jesus Christ is God. There is nothing being imagined, assumed, added to, or read into the verse as you claim. It is Paul's direct quote of a passage in Psalms 102:25-27 which he applies to Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1:10-12.
Jesus did not create the universe. "God" the father alone, exclusively, is described as the creator throughout “The Bible” (e.g. Is. 44:24; Is. 45:12; Is. 48:13; Is. 66:2). These biblical passages leaves no room for “God the Son” to have also created the literal planet.
Last edited by kids in america_; 02-12-2011 at 02:38 PM..
Also If Jesus was indeed the creator; it is quite odd how He made the statement “…from the beginning of the creation “God” made Adam and Eve…” [I'm paraphrasing here](Mk. 10:6). It really seems like Jesus understood “god” to be the creator, not He Himself.
The trinity can only been "seen" in either the Old Testament or the New Testament if one uses the spirit of human imagination and assumptions in order to "see" trinity where it does not actually exist.
Jesus is no where in the Bible ever once identified as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yes, in a very, very, very few instances the Hebrew/Greek words for God are applied to Jesus, but never in the exclusive sense of the Might of the universe, the source of all might.
The Bible is clear that God is triune but you are free to believe whatever you wish.
In Genesis 17:1 it is Jesus Christ who appeared to Abram and said of Himself, ''I am God almighty.'' In John 8:58 Jesus said, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I am.''
I have already shown you where in Exodus chapter 3 the angel of the LORD who appeared to Moses as the burning bush was Jesus Christ and in verse 16 He said to Moses to tell the elders of Israel that the LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob, had appeared to him.
Jesus Christ is the 'angel of the LORD', a title which belongs only to Jesus Christ in the Old Testament - the angel of the LORD is 'I AM WHO I AM' - 'I AM WHO I AM' is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - Jesus Christ is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
It is always Jesus Christ who is the revealed Person of the Godhead. It was Jesus Christ who appeared to Abraham in Genesis chapters 15 and following.
John 8:56 records a conversation that Jesus had with the Jews to whom He was speaking. ''Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.'' 57 The Jews therefore said to Him, ''You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?'' 58 Jesus said to them, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I am.'' 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
I have provided below some links to information concerning the angel of the LORD and that it is a title which belonged to Jesus Christ regarding His preincarnate appearances. But I can't make you look at them or believe them. That is up to you.
Yes, if one wants to use the spirit of human imagination, one can see "trinity" in Isaiah 48:16. Without the aid of that spirit of human imagination, however, the trinity dogma is not there.
"Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there." And now the Lord GOD [YAHWEH] has sent me and his Spirit. — Isaiah 48:16, Revised Standard Version.
We find here mentioned Yahweh and His spirit and that Yahweh and His Spirit sent Isaiah; we do not find one word about the Yahweh being one person of Yahweh, nor of Yahweh's spirit being another person of Yahweh, and actually Jesus has to replace Isaiah, but if it be considered that Yahweh and Yahweh's spirit sent Jesus, this actually means that Jesus is not Yahweh, and certainly it does not mean that Jesus is a person of Yahweh. Yes, one does have use a great deal of imagination so as to "see" three persons of Yawheh in the verse.
You make a habit of using that phrase, 'Yes, if one wants to use the spirit of human imagination, one can see "trinity,"' as if you think that it negates what the Bible plainly shows to be true.
Isaiah 48:16 is not referring to Isaiah. The speaker in verse 16 is the same speaker as in verse 1. ''Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Now compare Isaiah 48:12 with Revelation 22:13 where Jesus says of Himself, ''I am the Alpha and the Omega; the first and the last, the beginning and the end.''
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-12-2011 at 06:04 PM..
Hebrews 3:8 Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus Christ is indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Refer to post #41 of my thread If You deny that Jesus Christ is God, then Answer this!!! where the angel of the LORD is shown to be Jesus Christ and then look at Exodus 3 where the angel of the LORD who is Jesus Christ identified Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM'. And the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I have responded on that thread to the post given.
Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit both possess all of the attributes of deity. The attributes that make up the essense of God include Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.
Taking just a couple of those attributes;
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus Christ is immutable: Heb 13:8 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.
Yes, Jesus Christ has proven himself to be the same in faithfulness "to him who appointed him" (Hebrews 3:2), and even more so than Moses, since Jesus remained the same in his faithfulness and will always remain the same in this faithfulness, whereas Moses, wavered in his faithfulness. I don't see anything in this, however, that would mean that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scripture that Jesus is a person of the him who appointed him. The idea that this scriptures is speaking of an attribute that can only belong to the Most High has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what is stated.
The fact is that there is absolutely nothing at all about Yahweh being more than one person in either verse. Again, the spirit of human imagination is needed to add the triune dogma into what Yahweh said.
If I say to my son, "Let's go and build a house, and we will live in it...", I am not saying that my son is a person of me. Likewise, in those very, very few instances where God says "let us", "we", etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that Yahweh is speaking to someone else who is not Himself, not to grab hold of a lot of imagination so as to assume and add to what was said that Yahweh was speaking to Himself as one person of Yahweh to another perosn of Himself.
The trinity does not imply that there are three Persons in One Person. The fact that God is a triune Being means that there are three separate and distinct Persons who are united as One in the attributes of their essence.
God is three Persons who all have the exact same essence.
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God [ELOHIM] said [singular verb], "Let us make [plural] man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Throughout the scriptures, the Bible usually uses singular pronouns and verbs that describe Yahweh as one person. (I, he, singular you, etc., not we, they, them, etc.) Yahweh does not address himself as we, us, our, etc., nor is he doing so in Genesis 1:26, or the other "us" or "we" verses (Genesis 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8) that some trinitarians like to point to as alleged proofs that God is more than one person. Please note that out of the entire Old Testament, these four instances (Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8) are the only instances where it is claimed that Yahweh uses plural pronouns of Himself; all through the Old Testament the pronouns are singular. Nevertheless, if we closely examine those other three verses also, we can see that Yahweh is actually speaking to someone else when He uses the terms "us" or "we".
In the Old Testament both the singular and plural are used for God. That should tell you something. The word Elohim is plural and means that there is more than One Person in the trinity.
No, Yah-weh is not speaking to someone outside of the Godhead in Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isa 6:8. Take Gen 1:26. Then God said, ''Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...'' Verse 27 then says, 'And God created man in His image, in the image of God He created him; male and female, He created them.
The angels had no part in the creation of man. God alone created man. And it was Jesus Christ who was the actual agent of creation. God the Father gave the command, and God the Son - Jesus Christ performed the actual act of creation. Hebrews 1:2 states that God (the Father made the world through His Son - Jesus Christ. Col 1:16 says of Jesus, ''For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones of dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things have been creatd by Him and for Him.
How much more clear then that can it get? It was Jesus Christ who created all things both in the heavens and on earth. It was Jesus Christ who created Adam.
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So who was Yahweh speaking to as recorded in Genesis 1:26? Although there are some hints in the Old Testament, we have to look to the New Testament for the answer to this. John 1:1,2 tells us that the one who became flesh was with God in the beginning that is spoken of there. That "beginning" is not the beginning of the entire universe, as many have assumed, but it is the "beginning" of the "world" (Greek, Kosmos) that God created through the one called "the Word." (John 1:10) All in this world was made through the one called "the Word". Not one thing (pertaining to the world that was made through the Word) was made without the Word. (John 1:3) This one titled "the Word" became flesh, and came into the world that was made through him, and that world did not recognize him. (John 1:1,2,10) Jesus identified himself as that one who was with the "only true God" before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:1,3,5) "God", whom the Word was with, refers to the One whom Jesus addressed as "the only true God", that is, his God and Father. Jesus was with the only true God, and thus John 1:3,10 is really speaking of Jesus as the one through whom "God" made the world of mankind. Therefore, by comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), we can see that the one whom "the only true God" was addressing in Genesis 1:27 is Jesus.
You left out the part that says that the Word WAS GOD. John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God.
Again, Col 1:16 (New Testament) states that it was Jesus Christ who created ALL THINGS. ''And He (Jesus Christ) is the first born of all creation (this does not imply that Jesus Christ was ever created. It means that He is head over all creation). 16] FOR BY HIM (JESUS CHRIST) ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, BOTH IN THE HEAVENS AND ON EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, WHETHER THRONES OR DOMINIONS OR RULERS OR AUTHORITIES--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM.
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However, someone may object, doesn’t John 1:1 tell us that, not only was the Word with [or toward, in service of] God, but also that the Word was "God"? Doesn’t this prove the trinitarian idea that God is more than one person? No, it doesn't! It should be obvious, by comparing John 1:1,2 and John 17:1-5, that Jesus was with, or in service of, the only true God. Would John then say that Jesus "was" the only true God whom he was with?
The only true God is the triune God who is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ who is God became man and therefore the God-Man. Refer to my thread on the Hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ; the God-Man. His Hypostatic Union
In their plan of salvation for man, the first Person of the trinity, was the author of the plan. The plan called for the Second Person of the trinity - Jesus Christ to come into the world as a man and submit Himself to the will of the First Person of the trinity who as the author of the plan is the authority in the plan and is therefore called the Father.
Phil 2:5 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality whith God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself (set aside the independent use of His deity), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men, 8] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming to the point of death, even death on a cross.
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John twice states that the Word was with God, thus giving emphasis to this thought. The thought of two persons as the only true God is not inherent in the words of John 1:1,2, but the idea has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what John wrote. One has to imagine and assume that John, in referring to "God" whom the Word was with, does not mean the alleged triune "God", but that it means the first person of the alleged trinity as the Father. We know it is true that "God" whom the Word was with, or in service of, is the God and Father of Jesus, because of Jesus’ words as recorded in John 17:1,3,5. However, the part about the Father being a person of a trinity has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, what John wrote in John 1:1,2, and Jesus’ reference to the Father as the "only true God" in John 17:3 has to either be ignored, or in some manner be interpreted (again this is often done by imaginative assumptions being added to and read into what Jesus stated) in order make Jesus’ words still mean that Jesus is a person of the only true God. Likewise, the trinitarian has to imagine, assume, add to, and read into what John said that the Word is the alleged second person of the trinity.
So why would John say that the Word was "God", if we are not to imagine and assume he is a person of the only true God? Is there not only one God? Can Jesus be "God" who is not the only true God? And wouldn’t this mean that there is more than one true God? The answer again lies in comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), not by imagining, adding, and reading into the scripture a lot of assumptions that would make Jesus a person of his God. What is the true scriptural answer to why John would refer to Jesus as God?
Again the only true God is the triune God who is one God in three Persons.
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It is obvious that John is not referring to Jesus as "God" in the same manner in which he speaks of "God" whom Jesus was with. In other words, it should be obvious that Jesus is not "God" whom he was with, and as mentioned before, John emphasized this by repeating it again in John 1:2. If Jesus is "God" who he was with, or in service of, then Jesus is the Father, since Jesus says that he with his Father, but trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father.
Jesus is NOT the Father. The triune God is one in their essence - their nature. Not their Personhood. One God in three Persons.
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The Greek word for God is usually transliterated as "theos", and forms of this word are used twice in John 1:1. "Theos", in the New Testament, is used to translate form of the Hebrew word that is often transliterated as "EL"; it should be apparent that the Hebrew writers of the New Testament were using THEOS in the same manner, and with same meaning, as the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament.
What many do not realize is that there is a scriptural Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Most translations of the Bible into English as well as other languages recognize this usage. We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in many of these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."
If such Hebraic usage is applied to Jesus (who was with the only true God -- John 17:1,3) in John 1:1, we would have "the Word was mighty," and all makes perfect sense without adding all of the imaginations and assumptions that would have to accompany viewing the scripture through the tint of the trinity doctrine. Jesus was indeed a mighty one with the only true MIGHT before the world of mankind was made. Thus, the scriptural conclusion is that it was this "mighty" one that the only true God addressed in Genesis 1:27, using the term "let us."
And again, only God can create the universe. And as Col 1:16 makes clear, it was Jesus Christ who created the universe.
There are many passages in the Old Testament used for God, that in the New Testament are used of Jesus Christ. One example is Psalm 48:12 with Revelation 22:13
Jesus did not create the universe. "God" the father alone, exclusively, is described as the creator throughout “The Bible” (e.g. Is. 44:24; Is. 45:12; Is. 48:13; Is. 66:2). These biblical passages leaves no room for “God the Son” to have also created the literal planet.
To the contrary. John 1:1-3, Col 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2 make it clear that Jesus Christ created the universe. He created everything that has been created.
Hebrews 1:2 states that God the Father created the world through the Son - Jesus Christ. John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16 state that it was Jesus Christ who created the world and all that has been created.
All that has been created was created by Jesus for Jesus. (Col 1:16)
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Originally Posted by kids in america_
Also If Jesus was indeed the creator; it is quite odd how He made the statement “…from the beginning of the creation “God” made Adam and Eve…” [I'm paraphrasing here](Mk. 10:6). It really seems like Jesus understood “god” to be the creator, not He Himself.
In hypostatic union, Jesus could speak from the standpoint of His deity, or from the standpoint of His humanity, or from the standpoint of His hypstatic union. When Jesus referred to God, He was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. See my thread on the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ; the God-Man. His Hypostatic Union
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Philippians 2:5-8 Says Nothing About a Trinity
