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Old 02-25-2011, 11:20 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,364,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Finn, we could argue this point till the day we die and never agree on it. You will never get me to believe that faith is the only requirement for salvation because there is simply too much evidence to the contrary for me to ignore. I know you want to have the last word on this, so I'm going to step out of the conversation and let you do so. It is absolutely pointless for us to continue arguing about something on which we will never see eye to eye. Please continue without me...

While I agree that there is scriptures that talks about works, I see , at least in my time and experiences in organized religion, that the problem comes when you need to pin down what and how much works equals an association with the knowledge of your salvation.

How much is enough and what exactly is it that you must do in order to recognize salvation? This kind of thing is why in every church I have ever been in there is a large perceptage of people and sermons and teachings on trying to figure out what a person should do. Why so many people are spiritually stunted because they haven't been able to figure that out precisely and adequatly to diminish their anxiety over the problem.

There is one verse that proves our works are not what saves us, it is a verse that explains what works do.

1C 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If our works save us then this verse is a lie because here we see that a mans work can be burnt up, yet salvation is still gauranteed despite that.

What is it then about works that we should strive for? Well exactly what the verse says.....so that we do not suffer any more loss than we can help.

There certainly is nothing wrong with wanting to figure out what the right things to do in our lives should be and we will spend a life time trying to do them and we can hope they are worthy of reward, but they have nothing to do with our salvation, otherwise, we would be burnt up with them if we didn't get it right.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:55 PM
 
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If a man goes to church and says `My grandmother wants me to be water baptized so I am here so my grandmother can see me get water baptized ``...... so these man get baptized and Does NOT believe , then that man will not be saved to Jesus because he did not believe and he was not prepared to be Baptized, and his old man will stay in him ....... Jesus knows the heart and were faith in believing or Not believing, ....... So if you did not believed when you got baptized and did not live the life then you still need to repent and be water baptized.....
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:31 PM
Status: "Attacks in self-defense only." (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,904 posts, read 9,569,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
While I agree that there is scriptures that talks about works, I see , at least in my time and experiences in organized religion, that the problem comes when you need to pin down what and how much works equals an association with the knowledge of your salvation.

How much is enough and what exactly is it that you must do in order to recognize salvation?
The way I have been taught and the way that I understand it is that it's not a matter of a person's "good deeds" outweighing his "bad deeds" or a matter of having to reach a certain quota. It's a matter of commitment. A person is either committed to Jesus Christ or he isn't. We're all in equal need of a Savior because we all have sinned and are consequently unworthy to enter into God's presence.

I believe that when we are baptized, we enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. We make a commitment to honor, obey and remain faithful to Him throughout our lives. He makes a commitment to be our advocate with the Father and to reward our faithfulness with eternal life. This doesn't mean we must be perfect, 90% perfect or 75% perfect. What it means is dedicating ourselves to Him, and having a sincere desire to live the way He would have us live, repenting as necessary when we fall short and recommiting ourselves to Him each and every day of our lives. It's not a matter of our doing our best and then hoping it's enough. We don't have to hope it's enough. We know it's enough because He knows the condition of our hearts.
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,736 posts, read 12,118,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
The way I have been taught and the way that I understand it is that it's not a matter of a person's "good deeds" outweighing his "bad deeds" or a matter of having to reach a certain quota. It's a matter of commitment. A person is either committed to Jesus Christ or he isn't. We're all in equal need of a Savior because we all have sinned and are consequently unworthy to enter into God's presence.

I believe that when we are baptized, we enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. We make a commitment to honor, obey and remain faithful to Him throughout our lives. He makes a commitment to be our advocate with the Father and to reward our faithfulness with eternal life. This doesn't mean we must be perfect, 90% perfect or 75% perfect. What it means is dedicating ourselves to Him, and having a sincere desire to live the way He would have us live, repenting as necessary when we fall short and recommiting ourselves to Him each and every day of our lives. It's not a matter of our doing our best and then hoping it's enough. We don't have to hope it's enough. We know it's enough because He knows the condition of our hearts.
I just read about the mormon beliefs and the "fourth article of faith" authored by Joseph Smith does indeed dictate that a person is not saved unless the ritual of water baptism is performed. So, now I understand where you're coming from.
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:42 AM
Status: "Attacks in self-defense only." (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,904 posts, read 9,569,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I just read about the mormon beliefs and the "fourth article of faith" authored by Joseph Smith does indeed dictate that a person is not saved unless the ritual of water baptism is performed. So, now I understand where you're coming from.
Just so that you understand correctly, Finn, we believe that baptism by water is required for salvation, not because the fourth Article of Faith says so, or because Joseph Smith said so, but because that is what we believe the Bible says. When Joseph Smith wrote the Articles of Faith, it was in response to a request from a newspaper editor who asked for a summary of our beliefs. So, the Articles of Faith are a statement what we do believe, as opposed to what we're "supposed to" believe. I hope that makes sense.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:43 PM
 
666 posts, read 250,251 times
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Let me put my two cents in here. As everybody knows "Baptize" means to immerse, or cover completely. If you all go back and read [Mat. 3:11]: Notice that John the water baptizer said Jesus would instead baptize in Holy Spirit "...AND fire." Now that’s the real baptism. That is how Christ baptizes to this day. He would baptize in “Holy Spirit and Fire”. But what does that mean?
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:53 PM
Status: "Attacks in self-defense only." (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,904 posts, read 9,569,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Let me put my two cents in here. As everybody knows "Baptize" means to immerse, or cover completely. If you all go back and read [Mat. 3:11]: Notice that John the water baptizer said Jesus would instead baptize in Holy Spirit "...AND fire." Now that’s the real baptism. That is how Christ baptizes to this day. He would baptize in “Holy Spirit and Fire”. But what does that mean?
I don't recall seeing the word "instead."
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:23 PM
 
22,866 posts, read 10,770,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't recall seeing the word "instead."
Don't be disingenuous, Kat . . . using the specific word is not the only way to say "instead". John's work was to establish the idea of baptismal cleansing in the primitive minds of our ancestors using the water they could relate to for cleaning. He was just preparing the way for Jesus and His concept of baptism . . . the only real baptism that matters. Don't continue to perpetuate the ancient ignorance that was only necessary for ancient primitive minds.

Baptism: The True Water of Life
Jesus explained rebirth to Nicodemus. Nicodemus asked: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?" Jesus answered,
John 3:4

. . . I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Do not wonder that I said to thee, 'You must be born again.'

In this remarkable passage from John, the word Water has major significance. It is clear from the many references to it, that ordinary water is not what is meant here, since it is actually within each of us. There are many mentions of this internal water of life,

John 7:38,

. . . He who believes in me, as the scripture says, ' From within him there shall flow rivers of living water.'

John 4:13

. . . He, however, who drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up unto life everlasting.

This water of life within us that relates to our ability to achieve rebirth must refer to the fluid surrounding our brain. It is truly a water of life. However, at the time of Christ and John the Baptist, this was not exactly common knowledge. God's consciousness is always available to inspire our consciousness and those of the early "prophets." This basic idea would have to have been communicated (received) in terms that would make sense to primitive minds. Submersion into river water seems an obvious choice.

There is a standard pattern to human cognitive learning and the acceptance of new ideas. There must be at each new departure, a connecting link with previous knowledge or experience. Our means of achieving eternal life consists of immersion into the water-like fluid surrounding our brain. Our primitive ancestors could only produce a simple introduction to this concept probably using the link with the birth water that precedes our physical birth. For the primitives of John's day, immersion into river water and the rebirth that was symbolized by it set the basic concept firmly in the memory of the species.

John the Baptist's teaching of baptism by water was simply our first introduction to the methodology of rebirth. His task was to pave the way for understanding.

John 1:26,

. . . I baptize with water; but in the midst of you there stood one whom you do not know. He it is who is to come after me, who has been set above me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to loose.

John 1:31,

. . . And I did not know him. But that he may be known to Israel, for this reason have I come baptising with water.

and John 1:33,

. . . And I did not know him. But he who sent me to baptise with water said to me, 'He upon whom thou wilt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit.'

Since one’s attitude and one’s “Spirit” are really synonyms this basic idea would make it easier to accept and understand the true method once human knowledge progressed enough to have sufficient information about our brain, its functions, and its environment consisting of the water of life which controls the level of our emotional maturity and self-control.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:15 PM
Status: "Attacks in self-defense only." (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,904 posts, read 9,569,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Don't be disingenuous, Kat
Thanks for the insult. I was speaking from the heart, expressing my own deeply held beliefs that both forms of baptism are requred of us. The fact that you disagree with me does not make me disingenuous.

Quote:
using the specific word is not the only way to say "instead". John's work was to establish the idea of baptismal cleansing in the primitive minds of our ancestors using the water they could relate to for cleaning. He was just preparing the way for Jesus and His concept of baptism . . . the only real baptism that matters. Don't continue to perpetuate the ancient ignorance that was only necessary for ancient primitive minds.
I disagree. I don't believe that baptism by the Spirit was ever intended to replace baptism by water, which is what the word "instead" implies and what the poster I responded to was suggesting. It doesn't bother me that we don't see eye-to-eye on this matter. But don't accuse me of "perpetuating ignorance necessary for primitive minds" when all I am doing is sharing my own perspective. That's an unnecessarily harsh comment, and one I would not have expected to hear from you.

Kids in America said:

Quote:
Notice that John the water baptizer said Jesus would instead baptize in Holy Spirit.
That's not what John said. If it's permissible for kids in America to insert the word "instead," it should be just as permissible for me to insert the words "in addition to."

Last edited by Katzpur; 02-27-2011 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:52 PM
 
22,866 posts, read 10,770,438 times
Reputation: 3856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thanks for the insult. I was speaking from the heart, expressing my own deeply held beliefs that both forms of baptism are requred of us. The fact that you disagree with me does not make me disingenuous.
No it doesn't . . . but asserting that the actual word "instead" is the only way it could be interpreted as instead is just wrong, Kat. I apologize for thinking it was deliberate.
Quote:
I disagree. I don't believe that baptism by the Spirit was ever intended to replace baptism by water, which is what the word "instead" implies and what the poster I responded to was suggesting. It doesn't bother me that we don't see eye-to-eye on this matter. But don't accuse me of "perpetuating ignorance necessary for primitive minds" when all I am doing is sharing my own perspective. That's an unnecessarily harsh comment, and one I would not have expected to hear from you.
I was unnecessarily harsh, Kat . . . forgive me. I have been conversing with some really dense and intransigent believers and unbelievers for a while now and I just forgot who I was addressing. Mea culpa.
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