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Thank you sparrow for your thoughts on the filthy rag syndrome. I liked your POV, and I think you're right. The verse comes from OT times, when the Israelites were certainly trying to obey the Law, but without Love. (And isn't that what the OT is all about? Trying to fulfill God's commandments and look all "Godly," but all the while missing the basic truth in it all: Love God and your neighbor as yourself? )
Dewdrop, I loved your honesty. There is truly so much we don't know. And in fact, we can debate about religion all day, but in the end, what are we doing as a result? All the knowledge and wisdom and insight won't mean a hill of beans if we aren't doing something, showing some fruit, as a result!
Sciotamicks, I quite agree with you too. The Kingdom is spiritual, something that comes from within. I highly doubt that God loves one part of this globe over others, seeing He made it all in the first place...
Mystic, I totally agree. What is in our hearts is an indication of how much God is moving within us. And our actions and mouths certainly reflect that, just like Jesus said they would.
Miss Blue, I see you're cutting the hell out of our posts..! Can we infer that this is a "UR forum" now?
'Morning to all, btw... it's almost 8 in the AM where I am!
Blessings in the Lord our God!
brian
Last edited by ahigherway; 03-05-2011 at 12:50 AM..
No. I know you believe that he did - but in my opinion, no. In my opinion - if there is a God, and he wanted us to know everything, we would either be born knowing it - just like we are born knowing how to breathe and eat, or he would talk to us daily like on a huge loudspeaker or he would write messages to us across the sky. A book written around 2000 years ago that was supposedly divinely inpsired but written by men, to me, is not the same thing. So to me - these are the options that I see. 1)God does not exist. 2)God exists but he is nothing like the God most people envision - perhaps he is more of a deity or a consciousness or just a divine energy. 3)God exists but he doesn't want us to know everything. He wants us to learn and think and love and figure out our lives for ourselves - just like a good parent does.
Obviously, this is just my personal opinion. I'm perfectly okay with people disagreeing with me. Really makes no difference to me.
I am sorry, but we haven't done our job properly as we were commissioned to do. Don't blame God, blame us. He did His part, now it is up to us to teach it properly....until then.
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Wow!
How do you guys look into the same book and come up with completely opposite opinions?
There differing bible translations floating around out there. Some translate the Greek word AIONION as Eternal. Some translate it as "age-during" and some don't translate it at all but bring it directly over in its Anglicized transliterated form such as the Concordant Literal New Testament does as eonian.
So some believe God is going to eternally torment people and some believe God is going to give people age-during chastening and some believe it will be eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to the eon or 1000 years as Matthew 25:46 states.
Those poor translations keep some christians from believing at face value 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10,11; Romans 5:18,19; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; Ephesians 1:9,10; Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11 to name but a few.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Dear Campbell, Even if you say it is said during the Great White Throne (which is isn't but let's just for the sake or argument say your take is correct) that those who say "Lord, Lord" to Jesus will not enter the kingdom of the heavens, that kingdom is still on the earth after the great white throne. The New City Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth (Rev.21:10). So during that age they will not be allowed into the kingdom of the heavens He is setting up on the new earth.
It does not say they never go to heaven.
You are in fact accusing God of teaching heresy when you say it is heresy to teach that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all and teach that "God is the Saviour of all mankind . . . these things command and teach" (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11). You can't say God tells us in those verses we are to teach that "God will not save all mankind because Christ ransomed all" or teach that "God is not the Saviour of all mankind."
A Saviour is One Who saves, not just offers salvation.
Just the fact that you say "not all will be saved" you are in fact accusing God of telling us to teach heresy.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10 does not say "God will save all mankind only if they make the right choice" or that "God is the Saviour of all mankind as long as all mankind make the right choice.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 does tell us that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind. It is based upon what Christ did, not what man chooses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Jesus Christ the Saviour will save us only if we (BELIEVE IN HIM). John 3:16 For God so love the world that He gave us His only Son, that whosoever (BELIEVES IN HIM) will have eternal life.
My dear Campbell, John 3:16 should be "will have age-during (or eonian) life. That is how the Greek is. The Greek uses the adjectival form of the noun "aion" and so is "eonian." It is that which pertains to the eon or eons as the case may be. So those who do not believe, those whom God has not chosen to be believing, are those who will not see life, life pertaining to the two oncoming eons. The rest to not get life to live for the duration of those next two ages.
Yet we see unbelieving nations in the next 1000 year age in which Christ is going to adversatively judge and give them eonian chastening (Matt.25:46). So while the believers will be enjoying eonian life during that time, the unbelieving nations will not. Get it? It is not saying they will never be saved.
Quote:
Again, 1 Tim. 2:4 Reads, Who (will have all men to be saved.)
Most Bibles do not read this way. And for good reason. Because the actual and correct translation is (DESIRE OR WANTS) all men to be saved.
O.K. There is a perfect answer to the above if you will it to be wish:
`All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'" (Isaiah 46:10).
So if God desires all mankind to be saved BECAUSE Christ ransomed all mankind then He will do all His desire. Why? He must save all mankind because all mankind have been ransomed. It's too late. They can't unransom themselves. In the whole Bible, (you can search this yourself but I see you have not done so yet) whenever an animal or human was ransomed they had to be freed and were freed. All mankind have been ransomed. They must be freed from sin and death into God's salvation.
Quote:
John 3:16 tells us that (ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM) will be saved and have (ETERNAL LIFE). And since most of the world does not believe in him. It is a hersey to suggest all will be saved.
Answered above.
Quote:
Trying to hang your belief on a verse that is pulled out of context will not enable you to ignore the rest of the Scriptures.
But dear friend, I don't ignore the rest of the Scriptures. Some people God does not give faith to be believing because He doesn't need them for the next two ages or eons. So as you state ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM will be saved and have EONIAN LIFE. The rest to not get life till the eons are done.
So now you can believe all the scriptures.
Just remember, one who has been ransomed must be freed. All mankind have been ransomed therefore . . . .
As an outsider - here is the way I see it. It doesn't matter. Really, you can believe whatever the heck you want to. Here's the thing - both Universalists and ET'ers believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. They both believe in the Bible and all the other Christian stuff. The thing that they disagree with is what will happen to the rest of us non-Christians. Moderator cut: deleteIt seems that the main argument stems from what kind of news one is spreading - "good" news or fear. The universalists are concerned that the ET'ers are scaring people away from Jesus and the ET'ers are concerned that the universalists are letting us heathens and non-Christians believe that we have a free pass so we can feel free to sin all we want.
The thing is - none of this really matters to us that don't believe. It really doesn't. Moderator cut: delete And no matter what happens after this life (which quite honestly, I just believe is a final death - a nice, long, well deserved rest for my soul) - I have no desire to be a bad person. The consequences I'm concerned about are the ones that my actions have right here on this earth. If I make someone feel bad - I feel bad. If I make someone feel good - I feel good. I have absolutely no desire to cause anyone mental or physical harm. I love my husband and have absolutely no desire to cheat on him. I have no desire to steal, cheat, or lie. I do have a desire to laugh and cuddle and surround myself with love.
So I think both sides can stop worrying about what kind of news the other side is spreading. Those that need religion will find religion regardless of what kind of news they are told. If the ET'ers scare them - perhaps they will find universalism. Those that need more structure and guidance might be more inclined to find fundamentalism. People find and follow what makes sense to them.
So stop all the fussing and just try to accept others for who they are already!!! It doesn't matter who is right - because the fact of the matter is that nobody knows. You can quote the Bible all day long - but it doesn't change the fact that we really don't know for sure. If there is a God - let him speak for himself and quit trying to speak for him!
Jesus Christ commands Christians to tell the world about His salvation. And that is why you find us here. Right now we see you asleep in a burning house. And the ET'ers are not going to walk away from the situation only because you are not aware of the danger. And you would be incorrect in thinking that no one is sure if such a God is real. Speaking for myself. I have had numerous encounters with Him. He is real.
My dear Campbell, John 3:16 should be "will have age-during (or eonian) life. That is how the Greek is. The Greek uses the adjectival form of the noun "aion" and so is "eonian." It is that which pertains to the eon or eons as the case may be. So those who do not believe, those whom God has not chosen to be believing, are those who will not see life, life pertaining to the two oncoming eons. The rest to not get life to live for the duration of those next two ages.
Yet we see unbelieving nations in the next 1000 year age in which Christ is going to adversatively judge and give them eonian chastening (Matt.25:46). So while the believers will be enjoying eonian life during that time, the unbelieving nations will not. Get it? It is not saying they will never be saved.
O.K. There is a perfect answer to the above if you will it to be wish:
`All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'" (Isaiah 46:10).
So if God desires all mankind to be saved BECAUSE Christ ransomed all mankind then He will do all His desire. Why? He must save all mankind because all mankind have been ransomed. It's too late. They can't unransom themselves. In the whole Bible, (you can search this yourself but I see you have not done so yet) whenever an animal or human was ransomed they had to be freed and were freed. All mankind have been ransomed. They must be freed from sin and death into God's salvation.
Answered above.
But dear friend, I don't ignore the rest of the Scriptures. Some people God does not give faith to be believing because He doesn't need them for the next two ages or eons. So as you state ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM will be saved and have EONIAN LIFE. The rest to not get life till the eons are done.
So now you can believe all the scriptures.
Just remember, one who has been ransomed must be freed. All mankind have been ransomed therefore . . . .
Eusebius, I have no idea where you got your translation for John 3:16. Almost every Bible translation I have considered reads nothing like the one you quoted. Could you tell us what translation that came from? This sounds more like a translation from the Watch Tower Society
I prefer to leave the judgment to God. Who are we to declare who is a believer and who is not?
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