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Old 03-03-2011, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,731 posts, read 32,193,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
It was Jesus Christ Himself who told us that most people would enter the wide gate that leads to destruction. And He also told us only a few would enter the narrow gate that leads to eternal life. Don't blame the church for that belief. You really need to blame Jesus Christ. The problem for you is that Jesus told the truth. Yet you don't want to believe Him, and now your trying to blame others.
The problem with some people is that God is not what they want Him to be, and they find it unacceptable.

 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:12 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,224,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I just remembered after reading some comments in this thread that supposedly threads about hell and universalism are not allowed nowadays or something to that effect, right? Actually I wish that was not the case because, despite the verbal wars that have gone on because of these topics, it highlights (to me) the idea that Christianity (in ANY form) could NEVER, in my mind, be a viable option for me. Nothing's change in 2,000 years. From the start it was a movement of different sects arguing over even the most basic of things, be it the camp of Paul and his Gentile leanings and the Jerusalem Ebionites fussing over Jewish law and liberation from said laws or Arians and trinitarians.

That being said, as now an observer on the outside looking in, I would agree with the non-universalists. I think the bible is rather clear about its hell fire and brimstone message and its reality that some folks are just going to end up on god's bad side. Then again, maybe even as far back as those days, there were ALREADY universalists and non-universalists penning the pages of today's bible. This may have been a reality IF, as Bart Erhman has suggested, we read the bible vertically as opposed to horizontally where folks assume that EVERY single word in the book reads like an unbroken thread. Authors may have had their own theology that differed from that of others, but I digress on that tangent for the moment.

As I was saying, I would side with the non-universalists. Of course I believe the bible is not worth taking serious so I don't agree with their interpretations in that it is supposed to affect my life or that I am supposed to "measure up" to it, but I agree that the bible (for the most part) makes no provisions for some kind of salvation after the fact because the bible, in great part, is about rewards and punishmens. I think; however, this upsets the sensibilities of kind hearted people compounded by the fact it makes their god look like a complete a-hole of a sadistic monster. The non-universalist could care less because they are just happy they're "saved" and on their way to happy land, but others can't accept the idea that some tyrant god is busy creating humans to later fry them forever in some eternal fiery pit. I agree with the universalist that the passages used by the other group to justify their interpretations are used and have been used over the centuries to instill fear and maintain control, but I don't agree that sanitizing the passages into some "spiritual babble" that tries to remove the odious tone makes sense either because it does injustice to the true intention of the passages within their historical and theological context.

That makes sense, if believing that way makes you feel more comfortable demonizing the entire religion to begin with.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:18 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,224,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Satan is ALREADY preaching that all men will be saved no matter what they do or believe. And yes, he will quote the Bible out of context and misquote other verses to sell the teaching.
Wow, so you are saying that the devil teaches that God is the savior of all people, and that salvation is a free gift for every one that cannot be earned?

Where does it say that in the bible?
 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:20 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,702,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
I asked a simple question. Why can you not give a simple answer?
Because I don't want to.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:20 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,597,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Satan is ALREADY preaching that all men will be saved no matter what they do or believe.
That's not at all what I believe, and I think I can speak for others on this forum who are like-minded.

We must believe in order to be saved - that's what I believe.

But to spell it out, when any man comes face to face with the Living God, his defenses are melted like wax at His presence. (Psa 97:5) He makes believers out of men - can He not?
 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:51 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,782,393 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The antichrist to come is going to proclaim Himself God. And He will tell all world religions that whatever God they follow can be found in him. And he will command all living beings on the planet to worship him alone as the one true and living God.
Right. Now look back at what you originally claimed about Universalism.

Quote:
The antichrist will not be giving any credit to Jesus Christ.
Um..EXACTLY. So you just contradicted yourself all over the place by trying to imply that Universalism does or will have anything to do with the Anti-Christ. Geez, pay attention to what is being said here, and especially the false claims that you're making.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:58 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,782,393 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
It was Jesus Christ Himself who told us that most people would enter the wide gate that leads to destruction. And He also told us only a few would enter the narrow gate that leads to eternal life. Don't blame the church for that belief. You really need to blame Jesus Christ. The problem for you is that Jesus told the truth. Yet you don't want to believe Him, and now your trying to blame others.

OMG how many times does this have to be discussed for you to understand that the narrow and wide gates are not talking about eternity.....it is the "destruction" of the "old man" that the wide gate leads to....nowhere does this passage imply anything about eternity. All those who are saved right now and in the past will enter through the narrow gate. If you could learn to look at things without such finality you might begin to understand where UR's are coming from.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,305,481 times
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God cut a covenant with one man. He sealed that covenant with His Son.
Those who call on God, become part of that covenant.
Simple. I see UR has twisted it up once again.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 06:14 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,703,077 times
Reputation: 495
[quote=Ilene Wright;18122642]
Quote:

Right. Now look back at what you originally claimed about Universalism.



Um..EXACTLY. So you just contradicted yourself all over the place by trying to imply that Universalism does or will have anything to do with the Anti-Christ. Geez, pay attention to what is being said here, and especially the false claims that you're making.



I did not contradict myself at all. The reason the AntiChrist will not give any credit to God is because he will tell everone that he is God. Universalims tells everyone it does not matter who you believe in, because God will save everyone anyway. The Antichrist will do great wonders to convince the people of earth that he is God. So most of the world will be convinced that he is. And the Antichrist will command that all worship him. And those who refuse will be put to death. There is nothing false about what I am saying here. You will find all of this in the Scriptures. And according to you who cares how many this man murders. We will all be in heaven together anyway. Even the one's doing the murdering.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 06:17 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,493,314 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The antichrist to come is going to proclaim Himself God. And He will tell all world religions that whatever God they follow can be found in him. And he will command all living beings on the planet to worship him alone as the one true and living God. The antichrist will not be giving any credit to Jesus Christ.
Universalism doesn't believe all world religions lead to God. At least not the Universalism I've been involved with for over 30 years.

Now the U/U church (Universalist/Unitarian church) *might* believe all religions lead to God. I don't know for sure. But no one I know believes that. We believe that if Jesus Christ did not die for our sins that no one could be saved. We also believe that because Jesus Christ died for our sins, this did not make salvation a possibility but a sure thing. His death actually accomplished something.

So do us a favor the next time you make unfounded statements; let us know if you are talking about the Universalist/Unitarian church or Christians who believe God will save all because Christ actually ransomed all.
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