A fun quiz on Mormonism (abomination, churches, prayer, Jesus)

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

What does salvation mean to LDS Christians? (Part 2 of 2)

According to our doctrine, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is continuing to be taught there, even as we speak – not by Jesus Christ himself, but by His followers, by those who had the opportunity to receive the Gospel during their mortality. We believe that when Jesus Christ returns to Earth at the beginning of the Millennium, all who have died will have had the opportunity, either during their mortal lives or during the time they spent in the Spirit World, to have heard, fully comprehended, and either accepted or rejected the good news of God’s plan for their eternal happiness. In other words, all will have ended up being participants in the Plan on a level playing field, so to speak. At the beginning of the Millennium, all those who have accepted His Gospel will be resurrected and received into Heaven. (This is the First Resurrection.) Those who have not will remain in Hell for another thousand years, during which time they will be made to continue to endure the punishment they could have avoided simply by being willing to repent and accept Christ’s grace when it was offered to them. At the end of the thousand years, the wicked will at last overcome their stubborn refusal. At that time, they too will be resurrected, will stand before God to be judged, and will acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, fulfilling the prophesy that “every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Him.” They, too, will then be welcomed into Heaven. (This is the Second Resurrection.)

Finally, I should mention a couple of important points I haven’t yet touched upon. First, when we LDS speak of “salvation” as being essentially universal in nature, we are using the word to mean what a non-LDS Christian might mean by the word “justification,” or “being declared free from guilt or blame.” When an LDS-Christian is speaking of salvation to a non-LDS Christian, he is probably referring to the fact that all will eventually be justified before God – either by accepting Christ’s offer to suffer on his behalf, or by being punished throughout the Millennium for his own sins. In speaking among ourselves (in LDS worship services, for instance), we often use the word “salvation” in its more specific and limited meaning of “sanctification” or “being made holy.” Sometimes we use the phrases, “the fulness of salvation” or “life eternal in the Celestial Kingdom.” This is “exaltation,” the end result of the doctrine of Eternal Progression. I have already explained this doctrine, so I won’t go into it further, except that it too is attained through the grace of God and as the realization of His desire that we become all that He has given us the potential to become. We can only do this if we are active participants in the process.

Second, we do not believe that Heaven is a “one size fits all” kind of place. Jesus Christ said that He would “reward every man according to his works.” In other words, where there is greater obedience and faithfulness, there will be greater rewards. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of the resurrection of mankind. He says, “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.” Elsewhere, a man is said to have been “caught up to the third heaven.” We believe that Heaven is comprised of three distinct “degrees of glory” or heavenly kingdoms.

The lowest of the three heavenly kingdoms or degrees of glory is known as the Telestial Kingdom. It is the only one of the three to which Paul does not refer by name. He does, however, compare its glory to the glory of the stars. The Telestial Kingdom will be populated with the unrepentant sinners who, in spite of the fact that they did ultimately acknowledge Jesus to be the Christ, refused to accept His teachings or His atoning sacrifice on their behalf. They were too proud or too rebellious to care to commit themselves to Him in any way, and were willing to accept the consequences for their refusal. (These were the souls who had to wait until the Second Resurrection to receive their resurrected bodies.) They will spend eternity as “servants of the Most High but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come…” They will, however, feel the presence of the Holy Spirit throughout eternity and Joseph Smith said that even the glory of the Telestial Kingdom “surpasses all understanding.”

The middle of the three kingdoms is known as the Terrestrial Kingdom. Those who will spend eternity here are the good people of the Earth who lived as righteously as they knew how with the degree of knowledge they had while alive, but who – when given the opportunity to accept the “fulness of the gospel” in the Spirit World – were simply not interested. These were not wicked people, but were complacent and less committed to their Savior than they might have been. Paul compared the glory of this kingdom to that of the moon. As there is a significant difference between the glory of the stars and the glory of the moon, there will also be a significant difference between an eternity spent in the Telestial Kingdom and one spent in the Terrestrial Kingdom.

The highest of the three kingdoms is known as the Celestial Kingdom, the kingdom where the glory is said to be like that of the sun. This glory far, far exceeds the glory of the other two kingdoms. This is the “Kingdom of God.” It is where God the Father is, and where His personal presence will be enjoyed forever. This kingdom is reserved for those who not only have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ but who fully embrace that gospel and strive to live according to His example, obeying His commandments to the best of their abilities. (Those who attain either the Terrestrial or the Celestial Kingdom will have risen at the time of the First Resurrection.)

I know there are apparently different levels of Heaven, but I've never given much thought to what they are. I just sort of assume it's something like a reverse image of Dante's Inferno. It really doesn't matter to me because I trust that Christ will put me wherever He wants me and that's more than good enough. I'll be content wherever I am.

I will say this, though: IF our presence in a higher level of Heaven has anything to do with our own, personal effort, (that is, more effort yields better results), I can't see how that won't breed resentment, envy and jealousy, which I don't think will be present in Heaven. At least, I hope none of those things are there, for if there is, there's no reason to assume there couldn't be another rebellion against God like the one pulled off by Lucifer.

Also, the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom seems steeped in legalism to me, but we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

[stillkit]

I summation of this whole thread, it seems to me that our chief differences in doctrine lie in the post-Salvation area. That is, we disagree on a lot of things which we think will happen AFTER we've accepted Christ, but that path to being declared righteous by God because of the blood of Christ is the same.

I just don't see that as a reason to be at odds with each other, do you?

[peter60]

I could not vote for any items on the poll because none of them were completely correct. Many were completely false while some were close to correct. In my opinion, the closest one to being correct is:

"Jesus founded a Church. After His death, men changed it. Mormonism is that Church, re-established".

The real truth is that Jesus founded a church. After the death of the apostles, the priesthood authority disappeared from the earth. Thus, a church owned and led by Christ was no more. The Mormon church is a restoration of the church of Jesus Christ along with the priesthood authority to act in Gods name.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by peter60

I could not vote for any items on the poll because none of them were completely correct. Many were completely false while some were close to correct. In my opinion, the closest one to being correct is:

"Jesus founded a Church. After His death, men changed it. Mormonism is that Church, re-established".

The real truth is that Jesus founded a church. After the death of the apostles, the priesthood authority disappeared from the earth. Thus, a church owned and led by Christ was no more. The Mormon church is a restoration of the church of Jesus Christ along with the priesthood authority to act in Gods name.

Okay, well I see very little difference between what you said and what I said. When you start a poll on City-Data, each choice must be no greater than 100 characters in length (including spaces, if I'm not mistaken). I was forced to be more concise than I would have been without those constraints. That's why I ultimately posted a longer explanation in post #33.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by stillkit

Salvation comes by faith in Christ, period. That is, verbally acknowledging Christ as the only Son of God who died in payment of our personal sins and was resurrected on the third day to sit at the right hand of the throne of God, where He is now. When I witness to someone, I explain it using the ABC method:

A: Acknowledge you're a sinner and unable to save yourself from judgment, no matter how "good" you think you are. A necessary adjunct to that, of course, is repentence which merely means a "change of mind" in the Greek. In other words, a person must be sorry and ashamed for his sins and truly INTEND to do otherwise in his heart. Salvation takes place totally in a person's heart and that's what God looks at.

B: Believe in your heart that Jesus was the one, true Son of God, that He died to pay for your sins and was resurrected on the third day.

C: Confess that to another person.

I agree with the essence of what you've said here, and would particularly stress the fact that God has the ability to see into our hearts. As my favorite LDS scholar/author put it, "Attitude -- the condition of our hearts -- is everything.... Until our hearts are broken and our spirits are contrite, our relative goodness is of little benefit."

Frankly, I don't know about the necessity of immersion baptism, but I do encourage anyone who comes to salvation in my presence to do that as soon as possible as their first act of faith. If a place was available, I'd do it myself, right then. I know the thief on the Cross was promised Paradise without being baptized, but I also know that was before the resurrection when all things changed and Jesus himself told his disciples to baptize people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Whether or not failing to be baptized would keep someone out of Heaven seems a little more legalistic than my understanding of the Grace of God would indicate.

Since we LDS believe that proxy baptism was a doctrine practiced in the ancient Church, and because we continue to practice it today, we do not see the requirement for baptism to be problematic. In other words, we don't see this commandment to be legalistic our in any way counter to the concept that God is full of grace and mercy, simply because we also believe He has provided a means by which all who believe will ultimate have the opportunity to be baptized -- either receiving this ordinance themselves during mortality or receiving it by proxy during the period of time prior to when their body is resurrected and they stand before God to be judged. Granted, a discussion of this doctrine would take us way off-topic.

Once saved, always saved: That's a basic tenant of Southen Baptist beliefs (which you can find in the Baptist Faith and Message, the only thing we have even approaching a real doctrine: The Baptist Faith & Message )

I know that Jesus said that whatsoever He has in His hand, no man can remove. But, I also know that in Galatian's 5, Paul talks about "falling from Grace," or making Christ of "no effect to us" if we slip back into legalism. Those are pretty powerful terms which COULD indicate a loss of salvation, but not necessarily.

Additionally, there's a series of verses in Hebrew's 6 which describes someone who has found true salvation and then willingly turns away from it and Pauls says that for those people, it is impossible to "renew them again unto repentance." (Heb 6:6) That's a dangerous state of affairs because repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Also, Paul talks in several places about finishing the race, which would indicate to me that it is possible to NOT finish it. Otherwise, why would he even have encouraged us to go on? In any race, even a human one, there are only two possible reasons for not crossing the finish line: Either you get injured and can't finish, or you just throw up your hands and quit.

Consequently, I believe that you can't LOSE your salvation, but you CAN willingly give it back. If we have the free will to chose Christ, it seems obvious that we also have the free will to give Him back. Again, it's all dependent upon what you purpose in your heart.

I love the way you put this! You can willingly give your salvation back. You explained this very well. Thank you!

Works: I make a distinction between works and fruits, which I think the Bible does too, but it's not a commonly understood difference.

First off, the presence of the Holy Spirit (or, Holy Ghost) in a person's life is evidence of true salvation. No Spirit, no salvation. It's a simple as that. The Spirit was first sent to believer's at Pentacost as a seal of their deliverance and as a helper to those who trust in Christ. I don't think that's the same thing as the Spirit of God falling on certain individual's before Pentacost, though. The Spirit of God has animated people throughout history, and still does, but the giving of that Spirit as a seal of redemption only happened first in the upper room AFTER the resurrection of our Savior.

In any case, the fruits of the Spirit are intensely personal and result in an obvious and visible change in behavior or, more correctly, in a believer's manner of thinking and living. Paul described the fruits of the Spirit thusly:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

A truly saved person will exhibit those traits or his salvation is in question.

Works, on the other hand, is what we DO with that. In the Greek, works means just what we'd think it means: Basically, your job. It is what we are doing to advance the Kingdom and to fulfill the Great Commission.

Excellent point. Works are what we do to advance the Kingdom and to fulfill the Great Commission.

I believe that God knew before creation who would come to Him eventually and has used the eons which preceded us to craft exactly the person He wants, to do what He's intended to do with us all along. From our genetics to our life experiences, He's been weaving our character, likes, dislikes and a thousand other things to make us usable for specific missions, at specific times throughout our lives, and a truly saved and surrendered person will produce exactly the effects God intends him to produce. That's our works.

However, we can short-circuit that by refusing to surrender our will and our lives to Him. That doesn't mean God won't be able to do what He intends to do and neither does it mean we lose our salvation. It just means we won't be as successful as God intended and we won't reap the rewards for our faithful service that we could have. God has some other way, or some other person, available to achieve His will, so the only one who loses from a failure to produce good works is us. Instead of a mansion on a hill in heaven, we may end up in a mud hut propped against the back wall, but still in heaven.

A mansion on a hill or a mud hut propped against the back wall but still in Heaven. I can go along with that. I even like the analogy. Of course I see it in terms of the mansion on a hill being the Celestial Kingdom and the mud hut propped against the back wall as being the Telestial Kingdom. I probably wouldn't have used those examples for one reason only: Somebody would be sure to interpret this as meaning that "Mormons believe some people will end up spending eternity in a mud huts," instead of "Mormons believe that even the lowest degree of glory is still Heaven."

James said "faith without works is dead." The word translated as dead there is the Greek word "nekros," which literally means "a corpse" and from which we get words like necrophilia. Properly, it means "one that has breathed his last, lifeless; destitute of life, without life, inanimate." Metaphorically, it means "spiritually dead," or, "destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative." (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)

I think the operative meaning depends very much upon what's in a person's heart, which only God knows. If his faith was never genuine to begin with (ie: he's still unsaved) his works are dead in the sense that they never lived anyhow. However, if he is truly saved but has backslidden into sin and rebellion, his works are dead in the sense that they don't have any power or force.

Which is a nice seque into this: We CAN be truly saved and still slip back into a sinful lifestyle, but retain our salvation. That's not something most of my fellow Southern Baptist's would probably agree with, but Paul talked about the warring of the Spirit and the flesh within us and he knew just what he was talking about. We ARE still carrying around our sinful nature and it DOES sometimes win. We ARE still human and God knows that and has promised to forgive our sins and transgressions (there IS a difference!) if we'll confess, repent (have a change of mind) and ask Him to.

Not only that, but there is no limit to how many times we can prevail upon His Grace. He'll forgive us every time, no matter how many times we intend to do better, but fail at it. As Jesus said to Peter who asked how many times he should forgive his brother, it's seventy times seven which indicates an unlimited number of times. (Matt 18:22. He further elucidated on that concept in Luke 17:4)

Agreed. As a Latter-day Saint, our focus is on doing better every day. When I wake up in the morning, my prayers to God generally includes an expression of gratitude that He is granting me a fresh start, and that because He knows that in my heart, I really do want to live the kind of life I committed to at baptism, He will forgive me for the prior day's shortcomings. Like you said, no matter how many times we fail, He'll forgive us. The important thing is that we continue to want to change, are sincere in our desire, and that we recognize we can't do it within Him.

But, here's the thing which points directly to your question about those who had faith in Christ at one point, then went on to live lives which showed no evidence of that faith: I'm convinced that we cannot overcome a single, solitary sinful impulse without the power of the Spirit. WE do not gain victory over sin in our own power, else we would be able to save ourselves by trying harder and that's legalism and Judaism. No....it is ONLY through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can overcome. Yet, we still fail, repeatedly. Why?

Because the Spirit has not given us victory over all sins and won't until our sanctification is complete at the end of all things!

Agreed.

By the way, I failed to note that salvation by the sacrifical blood of Christ is available to all, but all must voluntarily chose to let His blood pay for their sins. And, failure to make a choice IS a choice because we were all born condemned. I don't seen any Biblical justification (when taken in context) for the idea of Universal Redemption. So far as I understand it, the choice to accept Christ's payment of our sins must be made in this earthly life and there are no second chances.

I was just going to ask about those who were never given a "first chance," but I see that you addressed that point in another post. I will comment on the differences in our belief on that a bit later.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by stillkit

I find little to disagree with here, except for y'alls take on Universal Reconciliation (or Redemption). However, I have no more problem with that coming from the LDS church than I do from the Unitarian church, so long as the Gospel is still being preached, which it is. If someone believes in the idea of UR so completely that they think there's no necessity for taking the Gospel to the lost, then I'd have to say that's wrong. But, I don't know anyone who goes that far.

I would agree that it is absolutely essential that the Gospel continue to be preached and that Jesus Christ does not intend to pay the price for the sins of the unrepentant sinner who does not acknowledge Him as his Savior and Redeemer. That's why we are so intent upon preaching the Gospel. Whenever the topic of Universal Redemption versus Eternal Torment comes up (and to be honest, I am getting sick to death of seeing a new thread on the subject every other day), I generally side with the UR folks, even though my take on the subject is not quite the same as theirs. I cringe when ETers claim that URers believe everybody will be saved from their sins independently of whether they accept Jesus Christ or not. That is definitely not what the LDS Church teaches, so when I say we Mormons believe in a Universal Reconciliation, a lot of people misunderstand what that means to us. What we teach is that death is not the final curtain, and that those who have not had the opportunity to hear Christ's Gospel in this life will have the opportunity to do so before they stand before God to be judged. A lot of us (me included) believe that even if a person had "heard" the Gospel and not accepted it in this life, he may still accept it before the resurrection. That gets back to the belief you and I share that only God knows a person's heart. We don't always know what it was that caused the person to reject the Gospel. Perhaps it was that they are from a part of the world where Christianity is "known" but not taught in such a way that would be conducive to a person really understanding it. I'm thinking of some of the Islamic states today. Clearly most people in Iraq have heard of Jesus Christ, but how is Christian theology presented to Iraqi children today? I think we both know the answer to that. Also, due to personal circumstances, even some people here in the U.S. might not have had the opportunity to hear the Gospel taught in such a way that the Holy Ghost was able to confirm its truth to them. Of course, some people are simply willful, stubborn and rebellious. This isn't going to change regardless of the context in which they hear the Gospel presented. The point is, we don't know these people's hearts; only God does. That's why we don't just say, "You get one chance and that's it." If God is willing to forgive us seventy times seven after we accept the Gospel here on earth, might He not allow someone a second chance to accept it after death?

Of course, I don't believe that and can't see any justification in the Bible for doing so, but I know many can and do.

You've got to be one of the most open-minded people I've ever run into. I'm not trying to flatter you; I mean it. You are right in realizing that it is indeed possible to justify a variety of different positions on a number of different doctrines by an appeal to the Bible. It's a matter of which verses we focus on and how we interpret them.

But, if the lost are exposed to the Gospel and accept Christ, we all believe those people will enter the presence of God, so we are together on that. However, if those who hear the Gospel and reject it get another chance and come to Christ, I'll be pleasantly surprised and won't begrudge them their Salvation. If I'm right and they are expelled from the presence of God, then my belief's are not harmed because that's what I expected anyhow. I can't say how the UR folks will react if they are proven wrong, but it shouldn't affect their own salvation. In other words, UR is no threat to anyone unless it results in a failure to reach out to the lost. In any case, I don't see it as a reason for division. It's just another doctrinal difference which we have with other denominations and one which can be overcome by focusing on what we all agree on: Jesus Christ. After all, HE is the bottom line!

Yes! He is the bottom line and we do agree on that!

We're also in agreement on Paradise and Hell (or Purgatory or Hades or whatever anyone wants to call it), but I'm confused as to how the Gospel can be preached to those in the "spirit prison" if the righteous have gone on to somewhere else. Who's doing the preaching there, so to speak?

The point I mentioned but may not have explained adequately is that we believe the spirits of all mankind go to the Spirit World after death and not immediately to either Heaven or Hell. This is a realm that is best described as a state of existence that will either be "Paradise" for the righteous or "Prison/Hell" for the wicked. They aren't two separate places, nor have they been since Christ's visit to the spirits in prison during the time His body lay in the tomb. At any rate, we don't believe anyone goes to Heaven without a resurrected, perfected, immortal body, and we don't believe anyone will receive that resurrected body until Christ returns to begin His millennnial reign. Consequently, there are plenty of righteous spirits spreading the gospel to those in prison right now. We believe that through faith in Christ and repentence, those who hear the Gospel during this post-mortal period may be released from Prison and join the believers in a state of Paradise to continue to await the resurrection there.

(By the way, based upon my studies of early Christianity, I believe that Purgatory is a doctrine that came about as a result of the Apostasy Mormons believe took place during the late first and early second centuries. I believe it to be a corruption of the original doctrine, which of course we claim to teach today.)

You mentioned that people typically come to salvation at about the age of 8, so I assume that word "typically" indicates it's not a specific formal ceremony at a specific age, such as Confirmation or a Bar Mitzvah, right? We too baptize a lot of children at about that age, but there's no formal pressure to do so and we also bring in a lot of people much later in life. To us, it's an individual thing based upon their awareness and ability to reason their need for a Savior. In every case, though, they are drawn by the Spirit to God and make a decision for Christ. For some, that comes early, but for others, sometimes very, very late in life.

Yes, we almost always baptize our children when they reach the age of eight. It is, for us, a specific, formal ceremony at that age. Of course, many convert to the Church later in life and are baptized at that point.

We also believe that God does not hold people accountable who have never heard the Gospel, which includes those in remote places where it hasn't reached yet and children who have not yet reached what, for lack of a better term, is called the age of accountability. They are saved by the loving Grace of God until the point when they are confronted with a decision for Christ and understand what they're doing. It's my PERSONAL belief that everyone is born destined for salvation and their names are recorded in God's Book of Life. But, when they finally reject Christ, their names are blotted out of that book eternally. When they accept Christ, their names are recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life and that's the first book opened at the final judgment. If you're there, the trial is over and you move on to being rewarded for what you did for Christ. If it's not there, you're judged according to your own works, which are guaranteed to be insufficient to enter eternal rest.

Whether or not the place those lost souls go is eternal torment, I really can't say. Clearly, the Bible says that, but it also gives enough indication that "hell" will result in permanent destruction too, or eternal death, that I remain unsure either way. I hate to sound harsh and uncaring, but where the lost go isn't so important to me as where those who trust in Christ go. At that point, it'll be too late to do anything about it anyhow and I'm convinced each will fully understand his fate was his own choice.

These last two paragraphs are very interesting to me. I would like to continue discussing them during the next couple of days if that's okay with you.

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes, we almost always baptize our children when they reach the age of eight. It is, for us, a specific, formal ceremony at that age. Of course, many convert to the Church later in life and are baptized at that point.

What if they're not mature enough to understand what they're doing? Is there some kind of follow-on ceremony or avenue for those who only come to fully understand their own sin nature later?

These last two paragraphs are very interesting to me. I would like to continue discussing them during the next couple of days if that's okay with you.

That's fine with me as this has been fun so far and we've not yet exhausted items to talk about!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by stillkit

What if they're not mature enough to understand what they're doing? Is there some kind of follow-on ceremony or avenue for those who only come to fully understand their own sin nature later?

Children born into practicing LDS families will be given about an hour and a half age-appropriate religious instruction every Sunday (starting at the age of three) in church plus another half-hour or hour more at "Family Home Evening" every Monday night. They will also be taught at home to pray (not a memorized prayer, but a from-the-heart conversation with their Father in Heaven) and will be encouraged to read the scriptures every day from the time they are able to read. These are the kids who are baptized at the age of eight. Are all of them mature enough to understand what they're doing? Probably not, but they should be mature enough to understand the difference between right and wrong (which is something they couldn't do as infants). They generally understand the basics at that point. Personally, I doubt they recognize the importance of what they're doing when they enter into the baptismal covenant, but they do know that Jesus died so that they might be forgiven of their sins, and they understand the concept of repentance. As I said, these are the kids born into practicing LDS families. Children of parents who are less devout may not end up being baptized until they are told enough to tell their parents they want to do so. At any rate, once they have been baptized, this religious instruction continues. During a child's high school years, it is often even more intense, with additional instruction being given five days a week for an hour before their school classes begin. Hopefully, by the time they reach adulthood, they are very well-grounded in the scriptures and in the principles of the Gospel.

That's fine with me as this has been fun so far and we've not yet exhausted items to talk about!

Great! I'm glad you're interested in further discussion.

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Children born into practicing LDS families will be given about an hour and a half age-appropriate religious instruction every Sunday (starting at the age of three) in church plus another half-hour or hour more at "Family Home Evening" every Monday night. They will also be taught at home to pray (not a memorized prayer, but a from-the-heart conversation with their Father in Heaven) and will be encouraged to read the scriptures every day from the time they are able to read. These are the kids who are baptized at the age of eight. Are all of them mature enough to understand what they're doing? Probably not, but they should be mature enough to understand the difference between right and wrong (which is something they couldn't do as infants). They generally understand the basics at that point. Personally, I doubt they recognize the importance of what they're doing when they enter into the baptismal covenant, but they do know that Jesus died so that they might be forgiven of their sins, and they understand the concept of repentance. As I said, these are the kids born into practicing LDS families. Children of parents who are less devout may not end up being baptized until they are told enough to tell their parents they want to do so. At any rate, once they have been baptized, this religious instruction continues. During a child's high school years, it is often even more intense, with additional instruction being given five days a week for an hour before their school classes begin. Hopefully, by the time they reach adulthood, they are very well-grounded in the scriptures and in the principles of the Gospel.

Great! I'm glad you're interested in further discussion.

That level of intense education (some would call it indoctrination) is what leads a lot of my fellow SBC believer's, and some from other denominations, to refer to the LDS as a cult. Personally, I don't know enough about the curriculum or the process to say one way or the other, but I do know we too teach our own children about the tenents of our faith (or should!). It's just usually not so formalized.

Moreover, there are plenty of private "Christian" schools which do far worse to their children as it goes on all day, every day in the guise of education. For instance, there's one right here locally which spends an inordinate amount of time teaching obedience to the pastor. And, there's one down in East Texas which I'm confident is in the process of training the Army of Joel, from K-high school. It's very militaristic. I could go on and on. The point is that we're not in much of a position to point fingers at anyone on that subject. That doesn't mean I totally agree with what y'all do, but it does mean I'm aware of similar things going on among the rest of us and it's not at all uncommon.

As for that other subject? I'll have to demur for awhile before starting in on that because I'll have to have time to do some research and pull up the specific references in the Bible which leads me to believe that. It's not something I've studied in quite awhile. I know it's there but, once having made up my mind, I naturally moved on and will now have to go back and resurrect it. I don't mind doing that, of course, but two of the 5 year old grandkids have been here all day, all week, and Papaw is mentally and physically exhausted. Today is the last day and Saturday will be my day of rest.

I'll get to it, but it may be a few days before I'm able to think logically again!

(By the way...yesterday, they had on their bathing suits, playing with the water hose! A month ago, we were in the midst of a prolonged, near-zero cold snap and were covered up in snow and ice, yet here they were acting like it was summer and it's technically still winter. Ain't Texas grand? )

[7gr8kz]

The Primary(children's) lessons are on lds.org. If you go to menu, then to study, then to manuals, on the left side it says Primary. Those are the lessons the children are taught. It also has the adult lessons and the lessons for the youth.