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In response to the following statement which I made on another thread
someone sent me the following Private Message which, without mentioning who sent the message, I decided to answer on the forum. The individual made the following statement and asked the related question.
Yes, I do have a real answer to the question.
First of all my statement had to do with the fact that God cannot decide to arbitrarily save anyone on the basis of His love. His love could only motivate God to provide the means of salvation. It was God's justice that actually made salvation possible. God's love was the motivation for our salvation, God's justice was the means of our salvation.
Secondly, there is nothing arbitrary in anything that God does, nor are there any 'loopholes' in God's plan.
Because eternal salvation was made possible by the judicial imputation of mankinds sins to Jesus Christ as He hung on the cross, God is free to save those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. And God is equally free to save those who die before they can be held accountable to make a faith decision because they don't have the mental ability (too young; severe mental retardation). And on the other side of the coin, God is just in leaving under eternal condemnation everyone who reaches the point of accountabililty and then dies without receiving Jesus Christ as Savior.
The fact that you were born means that God selected you to be born when He could have left you non-existent. God decides where on earth, and when in human history each of us is born. God could have placed you into history 3,000 years ago. But He made a sovereign decision that you would be born in the 20th century. And if you're over 11 years old, you were born in the 20th century. God decided into which country you would be born and who your parents would be. He knew the environment and conditions into which you would be born.
And He also chose the time, place and manner of your death. Apart from commiting suicide in which you use your volition to depart from this world in opposition to God's intended means of your departure from this life, no one dies unless God writes off on it. That is, God will allow you to use your volition to commit suicide but you are not authorized to do so. It is never God's desire that anyone take His own life. The only person in history who was authorized to bring His life to an end was Jesus Christ. The crucifixion did not kill Jesus. He voluntarily dismissed His soul and spirit from His body when His work on the cross was complete.
People depart from this life by various means. Some people live to a ripe old age. Others die young, even as infants. The manner of physical death assigned to you could be an illness, or an accident, or murder, or martyrdom, or by an animal attack, etc... Apart from your own choice to commit suicide, no manner of death can touch you unless and until God allows it. And in certain cases, God may even intervene and overrule someones decision to commit suicide.
We live in a world of cause and effect, and we all have free will. The things which happen to us are caused by our own decisions, and the decisions of other people. There are also many things which are outside of our control.
The individual who sent me the PM said that if God were truly Omnipotent (AND HE IS), that He could have created the world in such a way that everyone would reach the point of accountability. Yes He could have. But that wasn't what He chose to do. God intends that every country, every race, every segment of humanity will be represented in heaven. When a person dies before reaching the point where God would have to hold him accountable for making a volitional decision in response to the gospel message, that person is automatically saved and will live in the presence of God forever. That is a matter of God's sovereignty. Why God chooses one person to die as an infant instead of another person is His sovereign decision. He has His reasons for choosing who dies in any particular manner.
God also in eternity past took into account our volitional choices regarding our lifestyles. Therefore a person who eats a healthy diet and exercises may live longer than he otherwise might have. On the other hand, someone might smoke a pack a day and drink a quart of whiskey a day and live to be a hundred and five.
In summary, if God takes a person out of this world before reaching the point of accountability, that person is automatically saved. If a person reaches the point of accountability then where he spends eternity depends on his volitional decision in response to the gospel. And no one has the right to say that's not fair. God's sovereignty and man's volition co-exist by God's sovereign decree.
You are misunderstanding the sovreignty of God...What you have reported is semi-palagianism...Or calvinistic Arminianism...You are forgetting that god often sovreignly sent angels to disrupt...The story of Saul?...He also sent deliberate stupors upon people and caused them to be blind and deaf to the Truth...That is where Arminius was wrong in regards to the total sovreignty of God...Where Calvin was dead on regarding the sovreignty of God...
You are misunderstanding the sovreignty of God...What you have reported is semi-palagianism...Or calvinistic Arminianism...You are forgetting that god often sovreignly sent angels to disrupt...The story of Saul?...He also sent deliberate stupors upon people and caused them to be blind and deaf to the Truth...That is where Arminius was wrong in regards to the total sovreignty of God...Where Calvin was dead on regarding the sovreignty of God...
It is not I who misunderstands the sovereignty of God. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man co-exist by divine decree. If your intent is to deny that man has free will, then you don't understand the issue in the angelic conflict.
God's will can be classifed as 1]Overruling, 2]Directive, and 3]Permissive. Man's free will functions under God's permissive will. There are times when God will overrule a persons volitional decision to do something such as when God would not allow Balaam to curse Israel. Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24.
When a person continually hardens his heart against God, God will hand him over to his unbelief. A person can become locked into negative volition but he brings himself to that place because he insists on suppressing the truth. On denying it. On rejecting it. God is fully capable of using man's negative volition to achieve His purpose.
It is not I who misunderstands the sovereignty of God. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man co-exist by divine decree. If your intent is to deny that man has free will, then you don't understand the issue in the angelic conflict.
God's will can be classifed as 1]Overruling, 2]Directive, and 3]Permissive. Man's free will functions under God's permissive will. There are times when God will overrule a persons volitional decision to do something such as when God would not allow Balaam to curse Israel. Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24.
When a person continually hardens his heart against God, God will hand him over to his unbelief. A person can become locked into negative volition but he brings himself to that place because he insists on suppressing the truth. On denying it. On rejecting it. God is fully capable of using man's negative volition to achieve His purpose.
I've heard all that before and i believe it is man's way of coming to grips with the fact that he does not like the fact that his destiny is secure in God's plan, which in essence, would make him a robot and that does not appeal to him so he devises a solution that allows him free will with a philosophical explanation as you've given above...Our thoughts and actions must have an origin and since we are mere designs of God's mind and have no existence without Him...then everything we do or say or think must have it's origin in Him and His Design...We are not some invention of God that got out of control and therefore He must deal with it and manipulate us because we behaved unexpectedly...Why would a omnipotent, omnicient and omnipresent entity design something that He knew was flawed...Same question...Why would an engineer design and build something knowing all along that the design is flawed and therefore imperfect...and knowing fully that when he activated his invention it was not only going to blow up and destroy his lab but also the city in wich his lab is situated thus destroying the whole city and it's inhabitants...knowing this he proceeds to activate it anyway...knowing exactly what is going to happen...The logical conclusion here is that it is behaving exactly as he designed it to behave and functioning exactly as he desired it to...It was his plan and design...so, again i ask...why would a supreme being not know how his design is going to behave unless it is behaving exactly as he planned?...
"Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Notice that? It is like you were face down dead in the water after drowning and God came by in a boat. He didn't ask you if you would pretty please get in the boat to save yourself and then He waited and waited and waited. No, He grabs you by the scruff of the neck, wrenches you out of the water and plops you in the boat and quickens you (brings you to life).
Salvation is not a co-op venture where God makes salvation a possibility where only the strongest, the wisest survive.
God saves. He is the Saviour. We are the saved.
We were dead. Mankind is dead in trespasses and sins. It takes God to save us though Christ Jesus.
"Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Notice that? It is like you were face down dead in the water after drowning and God came by in a boat. He didn't ask you if you would pretty please get in the boat to save yourself and then He waited and waited and waited. No, He grabs you by the scruff of the neck, wrenches you out of the water and plops you in the boat and quickens you (brings you to life).
Salvation is not a co-op venture where God makes salvation a possibility where only the strongest, the wisest survive.
God saves. He is the Saviour. We are the saved.
We were dead. Mankind is dead in trespasses and sins. It takes God to save us though Christ Jesus.
We've had our disagreements on a lot of things...but, this i totally agree with you on...Amen!...
"Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Notice that? It is like you were face down dead in the water after drowning and God came by in a boat. He didn't ask you if you would pretty please get in the boat to save yourself and then He waited and waited and waited. No, He grabs you by the scruff of the neck, wrenches you out of the water and plops you in the boat and quickens you (brings you to life).
Salvation is not a co-op venture where God makes salvation a possibility where only the strongest, the wisest survive.
God saves. He is the Saviour. We are the saved.
We were dead. Mankind is dead in trespasses and sins. It takes God to save us though Christ Jesus.
Originally Posted by Mike555
It is not I who misunderstands the sovereignty of God. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man co-exist by divine decree. If your intent is to deny that man has free will, then you don't understand the issue in the angelic conflict.
God's will can be classifed as 1]Overruling, 2]Directive, and 3]Permissive. Man's free will functions under God's permissive will. There are times when God will overrule a persons volitional decision to do something such as when God would not allow Balaam to curse Israel. Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24.
When a person continually hardens his heart against God, God will hand him over to his unbelief. A person can become locked into negative volition but he brings himself to that place because he insists on suppressing the truth. On denying it. On rejecting it. God is fully capable of using man's negative volition to achieve His purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
I've heard all that before and i believe it is man's way of coming to grips with the fact that he does not like the fact that his destiny is secure in God's plan, which in essence, would make him a robot and that does not appeal to him so he devises a solution that allows him free will with a philosophical explanation as you've given above...Our thoughts and actions must have an origin and since we are mere designs of God's mind and have no existence without Him...then everything we do or say or think must have it's origin in Him and His Design...We are not some invention of God that got out of control and therefore He must deal with it and manipulate us because we behaved unexpectedly...Why would a omnipotent, omnicient and omnipresent entity design something that He knew was flawed...Same question...Why would an engineer design and build something knowing all along that the design is flawed and therefore imperfect...and knowing fully that when he activated his invention it was not only going to blow up and destroy his lab but also the city in wich his lab is situated thus destroying the whole city and it's inhabitants...knowing this he proceeds to activate it anyway...knowing exactly what is going to happen...The logical conclusion here is that it is behaving exactly as he designed it to behave and functioning exactly as he desired it to...It was his plan and design...so, again i ask...why would a supreme being not know how his design is going to behave unless it is behaving exactly as he planned?...
Man's destiny is determined by his free will in response to God's revelation. Those members of the human race who receive Jesus Christ as their Savior have eternal life and are eternally secure. They can never lose their salvation. Those members of the human race who die without placing their personal faith in Jesus Christ are eternally lost. They will spend eternity separated from God. Their situation is irrevocable.
There is nothing philosophical about what I said. It is those who reject that man has free will that often do so on philosophical grounds.
That God's will can be categorized as I previously stated is plainly shown in Scripture. God's will can be classifed as 1]Overruling, 2]Directive, and 3]Permissive. Man's free will functions under God's permissive will.
1] God's Overruling Will: There are times when God will overrule a persons volitional decision to do something such as when God would not allow Balaam to curse Israel. Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24.
2] God's Directive Will: What God desires you to think, to do, and where to go.
1.It is the will of God that every member of the human race be born again [2 Tim 2:4].
2. It is the will of God that all believers be experientially sanctified [2 Pet 3:18].
3. It is the will of God that all believers be controlled (filled) with the Holy Spirit [Eph 5:18].
4. It is the will of God that we give thanks in everything [1 Thess 5:18].
5. It is the will of God that believers suffer [1 Pet 4:19].
6. It is the will of God for every believer to trust the Lord [Prov 3:5].
7. It is the will of God for every believer to be productive [1 Pet 2:15].
3] God's Permissive will: The permissive will of God embraces only the moral features that are evil or contrary to His desired will. Though God does not actively promote this aspect of His sovereign will, He uses them to accomplish His purposes, since He knows before hand just how every person will respond to every possible situation, and decreed in eternity past to allow it or not. Nevertheless, God always places the responsibility for these acts and their results with men or angels. It is against God's will that men murder, or steal, or lie, etc... Yet men do these things. It is not God's desire that any man be eternally separated from Him, yet so very many will because of their refusal to come to God through Christ be eternally separated from Him.
God allows the pursuit of evil and God will discipline it and all of it will ultimately glorify Him but not the creature.
If we continue towards evil after warning discipline God will turn up the discipline to intensive levels, not out of anger, but out of love for the creature and justice for the Creator.
God desired that both angels and man have free will. He wanted to have a reciprocal relationship with His creatures. That required that angels and man have the ability to think and act contrary to God's will. Angels and man must have have the ability to say 'yes' or 'no.'
Both angels and man were created perfect. Free from sin. Free from flaws. Free will is not a flaw. It is the ability to make a choice. God is omniscient and knew everything from eternity past. Therefore nothing can take Him by surprise. God does not have to alter His plans because of some unexpected event being introduced into His plan.
God knew that free will in angels and man would result in sin, and yet He chose to create them anyway. Since He wanted angels and man to have free will, He had no choice but to allow that free will to function in opposition to His will. He knew that both angels and man would rebel and He knew that His righteousness would demand that His justice condemn those who disobey Him. He knew that He would provide a means of salvation based on the same justice which would condemn sin.
It is God's plan, will and purpose to bring many sons into glory. But of necessity, the justice of God must leave in condemnation all who have not believed in Christ.
"Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Notice that? It is like you were face down dead in the water after drowning and God came by in a boat. He didn't ask you if you would pretty please get in the boat to save yourself and then He waited and waited and waited. No, He grabs you by the scruff of the neck, wrenches you out of the water and plops you in the boat and quickens you (brings you to life).
Salvation is not a co-op venture where God makes salvation a possibility where only the strongest, the wisest survive.
God saves. He is the Saviour. We are the saved.
We were dead. Mankind is dead in trespasses and sins. It takes God to save us though Christ Jesus.
God did all the work that was involved in making eternal salvation possible. The offer of salvation becomes a realty only for those who obey the Gospel by believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. All others remain under divine condemnation (John 3:36; 1 Thess 1:8-9).
When a person continually hardens his heart against God, God will hand him over to his unbelief. A person can become locked into negative volition but he brings himself to that place because he insists on suppressing the truth. On denying it. On rejecting it. God is fully capable of using man's negative volition to achieve His purpose.
Man's destiny is determined by his free will in response to God's revelation. Those members of the human race who receive Jesus Christ as their Savior have eternal life and are eternally secure. They can never lose their salvation. Those members of the human race who die without placing their personal faith in Jesus Christ are eternally lost. They will spend eternity separated from God. Their situation is irrevocable.
He wills all to be saved; and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. [1Timothy 2:4]
Evidenced and expressed within the Scriptures, permissively believe it or forbid it, your choice:
1Timothy 4:10
It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, ...
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing (wishing or desiring) for any to perish,
but for all to come to repentance.
2 Timothy 2:25
…with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, …
…ever learning, but not quite able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [2 Timothy 3:7]
He wills all to be saved; and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. [1Timothy 2:4]
Evidenced and expressed within the Scriptures, permissively believe it or forbid it, your choice:
1Timothy 4:10
It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, ...
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing (wishing or desiring) for any to perish,
but for all to come to repentance.
2 Timothy 2:25
…with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, …
…ever learning, but not quite able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [2 Timothy 3:7]
Not apart from the condition of the Gospel. 2 Thess 1:7 '...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven whith His mighty angels in flaming fire. 8]dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
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