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Old 03-12-2011, 11:54 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,415,796 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You are a Jehovah's Witness...
Richard1965, it would be impossible for me to be a Jehovah's Witness. For I believe in the 3 in 1 God. The Jehovah Witnesses do not. Both the Father and Jesus made the earth and all things together. Because they both = ONE GOD.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This here makes some sense...though it comes through the mind of a professor of British-Israelism:

[CENTER]WHERE DID THE IDEA OF AN "IMMORTAL SOUL" COME FROM?
home page www.british-israel.ca

From the booklet "What is Man?" by Keith W. Stump[/CENTER]
FEW BELIEFS are more widely held than that of the "immortal soul." Virtually everyone is familiar with the concept. The average religious person, if asked, would state it something like this:
A human person is both body and soul. The body is the physical flesh-and-blood "shell" temporarily housing the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial aspect, made of spirit. At death the soul leaves the body, and lives on consciously forever in heaven or hell. (Some hold that liberated souls are reborn in new bodies in a series of "reincarnations" or "transmigrations.")
Some form of this concept is found among virtually all peoples and religions in the world today. The average religious person generally takes the idea for granted.
Science, which deals with the material universe and physical data, cannot verify or deny the existence of any such soul.
How, then, can one know whether or not man really has an "immortal soul"?
Few have stopped to ask where the concept came from in the first place. Many simply assume it has its origin in the Bible.
So prepare yourself for what could be one of the big surprises of your life!
The idea of an "immortal soul" long predates the founding of today's major religions. The ancient Greek historian Herodotus (5th century B.C.) tells us in his History that the ancient Egyptians were the first to teach that the soul of man is separable from the body, and immortal. This Egyptian idea was centuries before Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and Islam came onto the scene.
Nowhere in the ancient world was the afterlife of more concern than in Egypt. The countless tombs unearthed by archaeologists along the Nile provide eloquent testimony to the Egyptian belief that man possessed a spiritual aspect extending beyond his physical life.
To the east, the ancient Babylonians also held a belief in a future life of the soul in a "lower world." But Babylonian beliefs were nowhere so elaborate as the Egyptian.
A person, the Egyptians believed, consisted of a physical body and not one but two souls that lived on after his death: a ka soul and a ba soul.
The ka was said to be a spirit replica of a man, containing the "vital force" given to him at birth. At death, the ka was believed to take up residence in a statue or picture of the deceased. The statue or picture was placed in the tomb for that very purpose. As the tomb was to be the eternal home of the ka, it was provided with everything the ka would need for a happy afterlife---food, furniture, games, reading material, grooming aids and the like.
The other soul, the ba, was held to be that part of man that enjoyed an eternal existence in heaven. It was believed to fly from the body with the last breath. The ba was often depicted on tomb paintings as a human-headed hawk hovering over the deceased's body. The ancient Egyptians believed the ba occasionally came back to "visit" the body in the tomb and to partake of the food and drink offerings there.
The famous Book of The Dead---a collection of ancient Egyptian funerary and ritual texts---lays out in great detail the many Egyptian beliefs about the afterlife. In one version of the work, dating from the 15th century B.C., the ba of a deceased person is pictured as asking one of the Egyptian gods, "How long have I to live?" To which the god replied: "Thou shalt exist for millions of millions of years, a period of millions of years." What better depiction of the concept of immortality?
Passed on to Greeks
The idea of the soul's immortality did not cease with ancient Egyptian civilization. Notice again the testimony of the historian Herodotus:
"The Egyptians were the first that asserted that the soul of man is immortal...This opinion some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own" (from Euterpe, the second book of Herodotus' History).
The pagan Greeks got the concept of an immortal soul from the Egyptians! The foremost advocate among the ancient Greeks of the idea of an "immortal soul" was the Athenian philosopher Plato (428-348 B.C.), the pupil of Socrates. Plato was the founder of the Academy, an institute for philosophical and scientific research just outside of Athens.
The pre-Socratic Greek philosophers had no real conception of any nonmaterial element in man. The philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras were among the first of the Greeks to adopt the Egyptian view. They subsequently had a great influence on the thought of Plato. It was Plato who popularized the immortal soul concept throughout the Greek world.
In the Phaedo---one of Plato's most famous works---Plato recounts Socrates' final conversation with his friends on the last day of Socrates' life. Socrates declared to them:
"Be of good cheer, and do not lament my passing ...When you lay me down in my grave, say that you are burying my body only, and not my soul."
Socrates' statement is little different from the teaching of most churches today!
Notice also the following assertion from Plato, again taken from the Phaedo:
"The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible...Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
In Book X of The Republic---another of Plato's major works---he again wrote: "The soul of man is immortal and imperishable."
Statements by such ancient Greek and Roman writers as Polybius, Cicero, Seneca, Strabo---and even Plato himself---have led some modern historians to question whether Plato really personally believed the immortal soul doctrine. They suggest that he may have simply popularized what he knew to be a fiction as a means of keeping the citizenry in line through the fear of mysterious "unseen things" beyond this life.
The immortal soul concept, in other words, was a necessary companion doctrine to the doctrine of the terrible torments of parts of Hades or hell. Such fearsome teachings, some philosophers thought, were necessary to scare the masses into being good citizens.
Regardless of his motives and personal beliefs, Plato's teachings did have a wide impact. They spread throughout they known world and were accepted as truth by millions.
Plato and the Jews
The Jewish communities of antiquity were deeply influenced by Greek philosophical ideas. Many will suppose that the Platonic view of the soul imprisoned in the flesh would have been nothing new to the Jews. But notice the testimony of Jewish scholars themselves:
"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato its principle exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (The Jewish Encyclopedia, article, "Immortality of the Soul").
Many of you will undoubtedly be surprised to discover that the idea of the immortality of the soul was not derived by the Jews from the Old Testament scriptures, but rather taken from Plato.
As we shall see, the Old Testament takes a completely different view!
Another Surprise!
But what of the professing Christian world? Certainly here we should find the doctrine of an immortal soul independent of any Greek influence.
Now consider this fact:
Many of the early theologians and scholars of the professing Christian religion---including such men as Origen, Tertullian and Augustine---were closely associated with Platonism.
Tertullian (A.D. 155-220), for example, wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, the instance, is held by many ... I may use, therefore, the opinion of Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III).
Notice, it is the opinion of Plato that is cited!
Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430)---held to be the greatest thinker of Christian antiquity---also taught the immaterial and spiritual nature of the human soul. But notice the source of his teachings. The Encyclopaedia Britannica states:
"He [Augustine] fused the religion of the New Testament with the Platonic tradition of Greek philosophy."
Why should those early professing Christian scholars have resorted to the opinions of a pagan Greek philosopher? Could it be that the immortal soul doctrine is not clearly supported in Christian Scripture?
Notice the much later view of Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation in Germany. More than a thousand years later, in 1522, he wrote:
"It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions, indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment .... On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep ... in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their downlying at night and their uprising in the morning?"
Luther himself encountered difficulty in finding support for the immortal soul doctrine in the pages of Scripture.
Notice that he asked, "On what authority...?"
But the deep-seated teachings of centuries were not to be easily dislodged, even by Protestant reformers. Theologians and churchgoers alike persisted, for the most part, in their unquestioning embrace of the ideas passed down from the ancient pagan philosophers. As the Encyclopaedia Britannica summarizes:
"Traditional Western philosophy, starting with the ancient Greeks...shaped the basic Western concepts of the soul."
What the Bible REALLY Says!
Notice the warning of the apostle Paul, who once personally confronted Greek thinkers on Mars' Hill in ancient Athens (Acts 17:15-34). To the Greeks in Colosse in Asia Minor he wrote:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:8).
Jesus Christ himself warned of "making the word of God of none effect through your tradition" (Mark 7:13). "In vain they do worship me," he lamented, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9).
So what does the Bible really say?
Consider first the teaching of the Old Testament. As we have seen, the Jews living in the Hellenistic world admit they took the immortal soul doctrine from Plato. It is nowhere found in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Notice Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Consider carefully: Man---formed of the dust of the ground, not out of spirit---"became" a living soul. A soul is what man is. It is not something a man has.
The Hebrew language further proves this point. The Hebrew word translated as "soul" in Genesis 2:7 in the widely used Authorized Version of the Bible is nephesh. Nephesh, in general, designates that which has temporary physical life. It means a creature whose life source comes through breathing. This is the same word used frequently in the first chapter of Genesis and elsewhere in reference to animals.
Notice, for example, Genesis 1:24: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [nephesh] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."
Here the word creature is the identical Hebrew word that is used in Genesis 2:7 and throughout the Old Testament for "soul." In biblical usage, a brute beast is also a "soul"!
In Leviticus 21:11, Numbers 6:6, Haggai 2:13 and elsewhere, the word nephesh is even used with reference to a dead body.
Nephesh clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of immortal soul in man. The soul is not a separate entity from the body. It is the body! Man is a nephesh. He is a soul!
Many additional Old Testament scriptures reveal clearly the mortality ---not the immortality---of the soul. Ezekiel 18:4, 20, for example, declares that a soul can die! Read it for yourself: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." If the soul were immortal, how could it die? It's a direct contradiction of terms!
No wonder Jewish scholars today have to point to Plato as the origin of the immortal soul doctrine!
The New Testament Speaks
What about the New Testament? Surely here we find biblical proof for an immortal soul. Or do we?
In the New Testament, "soul" is a translation of the Greek word psuche. Psuche is generally equivalent to the Hebrew word nephesh. Like nephesh, psuche is frequently rendered "life" in addition to "soul."
Psuche is twice used in the New Testament for the lower animals, exactly in the same way as the Hebrew nephesh can refer to the life of animals. In these two scriptures (Rev. 8:9 and 16:3), psuche is rendered "life" and "soul" respectively, with reference to the life of sea creatures.
The word psuche has no connotation whatsoever of "spirit essence" or "immortal soul"!
Jesus Christ, in fact, declared that God is able to destroy one's soul (Greek psuche, or life) in Gehenna fire (Matt. 10:28).
The words immortal soul are found nowhere in the Bible---Old Testament or New. The word immortal occurs only once in the entire Bible---in I Timothy 1:17, where it refers specifically to Jesus Christ!
The word immortality is found only in the New Testament, where it occurs fewer than half a dozen times. One of those places---I Timothy 6:16---clearly states that, of all humans, Jesus Christ "ONLY hath immortality"! Romans 2:7 admonishes Christians to "SEEK FOR ...immortality." If man already had immortality, he would not have to seek for it!
I Corinthians 15---the "resurrection chapter" of the Bible---shows that a Christian "puts on" immortality at a future resurrection of the dead (see verses 50-54).
As Jesus clearly stated: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Man---born of the flesh---is flesh. He was not created with inherent immortality. He has only a temporary physicochemical existence. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," God told Adam (Gen. 3:19).
Only when mortal man is "born again" in a future resurrection will he finally put on immortality and be spirit! Why would a resurrection of the body be needed if the soul were already in heaven? The soul does not go to heaven! The mortal soul---man's physical life---dies and turns to dust.
The New Testament, then, teaches the resurrection---a rising from the dead---in direct opposition to the pagan Greek idea of an immortal soul. The resurrection is our only hope of eternal life! Jesus Christ's resurrection was a type or forerunner of the resurrection God promises to all who obey him (John 5:28-29; 11:25; Rom. 8:11; Phil. 3:10-11).
Man has no hope of future life inherent within himself!
The "Spirit in Man"
Now understand an additional basic truth. Few have ever grasped it.
Since man's material "soul"---his body and its physical life processes---is corruptible and perishes after death, how is it possible for God to ultimately resurrect an individual? If everything is physical and turns to dust, what is there that remains of a person to be "brought back"? How are his personality, his memory and his character preserved by God until a day of resurrection?
The answer is simply that not everything about a man is physical! The Bible calls this nonphysical component the "spirit [Hebrew ruach, Greek pneuma] in man" (Job 32:8; Zech. 12:1; I Cor. 2:11). It is not the man. It is in man.
This spirit in man, however, has no consciousness apart from the physical human brain. It is not to be confused in any way with the fictional concept of a conscious "immortal soul." "The dead know not any thing," the Bible declares (Eccl. 9:5, 10). In the day of a man's death, "his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4). The Bible clearly pictures death as a sleep---a state of unconsciousness (Dan. 12:2).
It is also this "spirit in man" that sets man apart from the animals. It is what makes man unique. It imparts to the living human brain the power of intellect to comprehend materialistic knowledge. It is the source of human intelligence. It is not present in animal brain.
Whole World Deceived
There is no scriptural basis whatever for belief in an "immortal soul" surviving consciously after death.
Throughout the centuries of professing Christianity, innumerable sermons have been preached and countless pamphlets written purporting to prove the soul's immortality. Upon careful and open-minded examination, they are all found to be riddled with surprising error.
The doctrine of the immortal soul is built on a foundation of biblical mistranslations, false premises and sloppy scholarship. Few had the spiritual courage to take a fresh, unprejudiced look at the question and accept the true Bible teaching.
For when the false doctrine of the immortal soul is toppled, along with it falls the equally pagan and false concept of Heaven and Hell---one of the cornerstones of traditional Christianity!
Satan the devil has succeeded---for the time being---in deceiving the whole world (Rev. 12:9). It was he who first introduced the idea that man does not really die, but is inherently immortal. "Ye shall not surely die," Satan lied to Eve in the garden of Eden (Gen. 3:4).
God's future for mankind is far more transcendent than the common picture of immortal souls floating on clouds and strumming harps for eternity. For those who choose it and fulfill the conditions, there is life after death by a resurrection. But that life will come through a new birth as an immortal spirit being into the very family of God---by means of a future resurrection from the dead!
It is time to cast off the fables and traditions of men and understand the great meaning and purpose of human life as revealed in the Bible!
Will you have the courage to look into it for yourself? - http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm
Man goes to great lengths to dispute what is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Man's soul is immortal and is separate from the body.

Hebrews 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper then any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The above two passages show that regenerate man has a human spirit, a soul (the real person) and a body.

Matthew 10:28 shows that the soul survives the death of the body. ''And do not fear those who kill the body; but are unable to kill the soul (Stop and think about what that is saying); but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body (both soul and body; a distinction is made here between the soul and the body) in hell. (Not cesssation of existence, but eternal ruination eternally separated from God.

Jesus told the repentant thief, ''...Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' (Luke 23:43). And no, there is no comma in the Greek which can be moved.

Before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Paradise was in Hades. Today, Paradise is in Heaven (2 Cor 12:4).

Paul was caught up into heaven (2 Cor 12:1-6). This may have happened when he was stoned by the Jews as recorded in Acts 14:19

Peter knew he was about to die. He spoke of the laying aside of his earthly dwelling (his body). He said, ''As long as I (the real him- his soul) am in this earthly dwelling...'' (2 Peter 1:13). He spoke of ''...the laying aside of my earthly dwelling...'' (2 Peter 1:14).

That the Greeks understood the concept of man's immortal soul does not invalidate the fact that the Word of God clearly shows that man's soul is immortal. Man lives forever. In that he has no choice. Man's only choice is in where he spends eternity. In the presence of God because of having trusted in Christ for eternal salvation, or eternally separated from God because of not believing in Christ.
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:16 PM
 
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Mike, if the soul is eternal why did Jesus tell His disciples to destroy their souls?
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, if the soul is eternal why did Jesus tell His disciples to destroy their souls?
Eusebius could you give us chapter and verse? It's always better to have such information before one comments. And I am still waiting for an answer to post 68.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:11 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
LOL, that's cute. I have studied Greek. If you go to any Greek text you
can prove this to yourself.


Let's go to the first word of Matthew 24:2. It is 'O' (ο)and with the rough
breathing mark (which looks like a backward comma on top of the 'O') is
"Ho."


Now go to the last word of Matthew 24:3 which is "aionos" (αιωνος) which
is singular. If you will notice, there is no rough breathing mark prior to the
iota.
Therefore when "aion" is shown to be pronounced "ahee-ohn," they are
really saying the "ah" is pronounced like we say "ah, now I understand."
So if you talk like a pirate and you ask: "Are you a pirate" and he says
"Aye, that I am!" the "Aye" is what the "ahee" sounds like. So you would
pronounce aiwn as "aye-own".
again...you should further your studies...
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:26 PM
 
Location: US
10,072 posts, read 3,760,160 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Man goes to great lengths to dispute what is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Man's soul is immortal and is separate from the body.

Hebrews 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper then any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The above two passages show that regenerate man has a human spirit, a soul (the real person) and a body.

Matthew 10:28 shows that the soul survives the death of the body. ''And do not fear those who kill the body; but are unable to kill the soul (Stop and think about what that is saying); but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body (both soul and body; a distinction is made here between the soul and the body) in hell. (Not cesssation of existence, but eternal ruination eternally separated from God.

Jesus told the repentant thief, ''...Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' (Luke 23:43). And no, there is no comma in the Greek which can be moved.

Before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Paradise was in Hades. Today, Paradise is in Heaven (2 Cor 12:4).

Paul was caught up into heaven (2 Cor 12:1-6). This may have happened when he was stoned by the Jews as recorded in Acts 14:19

Peter knew he was about to die. He spoke of the laying aside of his earthly dwelling (his body). He said, ''As long as I (the real him- his soul) am in this earthly dwelling...'' (2 Peter 1:13). He spoke of ''...the laying aside of my earthly dwelling...'' (2 Peter 1:14).

That the Greeks understood the concept of man's immortal soul does not invalidate the fact that the Word of God clearly shows that man's soul is immortal. Man lives forever. In that he has no choice. Man's only choice is in where he spends eternity. In the presence of God because of having trusted in Christ for eternal salvation, or eternally separated from God because of not believing in Christ.
Yea, cleaving body from spirit...the word in mat 10:28 is psuche witch mean spirit...breath...I really think that you should study the hebrew thoughts on this...it could really help your understanding...
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yea, cleaving body from spirit...the word in mat 10:28 is psuche witch mean spirit...breath...I really think that you should study the hebrew thoughts on this...it could really help your understanding...
"psuche" is "soul" and its adjectival form is "psuchikon" or "soulish."
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Eusebius could you give us chapter and verse? It's always better to have such information before one comments. And I am still waiting for an answer to post 68.
Mat 10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Yes God is the source. And according to the God of the Old Testament He made all things (BY HIMSELF) No mention of Jesus as a Channel.

Isaiah 44:24

Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, (THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS) who (ALONE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS), who did spread forth the earth (BY MYSELF).

Your belief that Jesus was a Channel or Jehovah's little helper is total nonsense. It's obvious to me you simply do not accept the Biblical account. Jehovah was the only one involved in creation. And if you believe in the three in one God. This verse is easy to understand. If you don't believe Jehovah's own words. Your going to have to do a lot of double talking here.

So could explain to us that if Jehovah (MADE ALL THINGS ALONE AND BY HIMSELD) how was Jesus helping Him?
I could, but you wouldn't believe me if I did.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:12 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,415,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I could, but you wouldn't believe me if I did.
Well that's one way to avoid answering a question.
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