I can't stand it anymore the lies from wolf's in sheep clothing.... the only accepted way a person is saved: (Gomorrah, traditions)
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I understand that. Do you agree with Mike that if someone mistakenly thinks they must feel sorry for their sins to be saved, that this thinking damns them?
I would need to see the context [or if in this OP to whom it was supposedly said in response to] as what was being discussed if Mike did make such a statement.....apparently you took notice or concluded something that I wasn't.
I would need to see the context [or if in this OP to whom it was supposedly said in response to] as what was being discussed if Mike did make such a statement.....apparently you took notice or concluded something that I wasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I would need to see the context [or if in this OP to whom it was supposedly said in response to] as what was being discussed if Mike did make such a statement.....apparently you took notice or concluded something that I wasn't.
He has stated that in other threads. I just pointed out the "Amen Brother" comment because I thought it was ironic in light of his beliefs, and I quoted your post because that verse indicates it's understandable that someone might think they need to be sorry for their sins since "Godly sorrow brings repentance which leads to salvation." It's very sad to me that anyone would believe God would damn someone to an eternity of torment simply because they "thought" they were supposed to feel sorry for their sins in order to be saved. He says "repent" simply means to change your mind about Jesus, and if you "think" it means to feel sorry for sins then you have added something to grace, so --- oops----Too bad for you! That, to me, is insanity and evil beyond description and it hurts me to think someone would believe God has that kind of character.
Yet, Mike has stated that he believes you are not saved and will burn for eternity if you think you have to feel sorry for your sins for salvation. Mike, if Godly sorrow brings repentance, what's wrong with that? Maybe it's not a "requirement" to be saved, but why would God toss someone into the lake of fire for thinking they are supposed to be sorry? What kind of justice would that be?
As usual, you twist things around. There is nothing wrong with feeling remorse which leads to repentence. What I said [not word for word] was that if a person thinks that as a requirement for salvation one must- has to - is required to work up a feeling of guilt or sorrow in order to be saved, to do penance [repentance is not penance] as a requirement, then that is legalism. It is works. Salvation is through faith alone, in Christ alone. Not faith plus feeling sorry for your sins. Just faith alone. And you added the part about 'burning for eternity.' The unbeliever will be eternally separated from God with whatever else is involved in that separation.
If you add ANYTHING to faith alone for salvation, then you are not trusting in Christ alone to save you, you are depending on something that you do to save you. Something which is meritorious as opposed to non-meritorious faith. Now, is that clear enough for you. And if it's not, that's too bad because that's all I'm going to say about it.
Hi Calgirlinnc - When I say devout - I mean someone who proclaims to be born again or seems, to me, to live their life according to the Bible. I don't mean someone who just goes to church or anything. I mean - like you, I can't judge who is a "true" Christian or not. I just think that when I look at the world and when I look at the people in my life - people's actions seems to come more out of their own personal nature than their beliefs. Some people that are extremely religious do much worse things that some people that aren't religious at all. Even among my closest friends - a lot of my more religious friends have slept with far more people than I have. They drink more, lie more, etc. - but also talk about God and Jesus more, too. They aren't bad people - not at all. If they were - they wouldn't be my friends! But being Christian doesn't seem to make them any different than anyone else. I think so much of how we live our lives depends on our own personalities and our own personal natures. I mean - I'm just a terrible liar. There is really nothing I can do about that. I'm an actress and it's almost impossible for me to lie when I'm not onstage. And it's not because I'm Christian or anything - I've always been this way.
If the 'Christians' you hang with are sleeping around, drinking and lying etc, sorry, but you are hanging with the wrong people. See Rev.21:8
There are real Christians out there, ones who do not lie, who do not fornicate, who do not steal or cheat on their taxes, Christians who are genuine lovers of God, who keep His commandments and live their faith. Methinks you need to look a little further afield.
If the 'Christians' you hang with are sleeping around, drinking and lying etc, sorry, but you are hanging with the wrong people. See Rev.21:8
There are real Christians out there, ones who do not lie, who do not fornicate, who do not steal or cheat on their taxes, Christians who are genuine lovers of God, who keep His commandments and live their faith. Methinks you need to look a little further afield.
You can judge my friends if you want to. I'm okay with that. I know who my friends are - I know they have good hearts and that I can count on them. They are good people. Methinks I don't need your advice.
As usual, you twist things around. There is nothing wrong with feeling remorse which leads to repentence. What I said [not word for word] was that if a person thinks that as a requirement for salvation one must- has to - is required to work up a feeling of guilt or sorrow in order to be saved, to do penance [repentance is not penance] as a requirement, then that is legalism. It is works. Salvation is through faith alone, in Christ alone. Not faith plus feeling sorry for your sins. Just faith alone. And you added the part about 'burning for eternity.' The unbeliever will be eternally separated from God with whatever else is involved in that separation.
If you add ANYTHING to faith alone for salvation, then you are not trusting in Christ alone to save you, you are depending on something that you do to save you. Something which is meritorious as opposed to non-meritorious faith. Now, is that clear enough for you. And if it's not, that's too bad because that's all I'm going to say about it.
Not only is it clear, but it's exactly what I said. Where's the twisting? I didn't say that you said there is anything wrong with feeling remorse. You have stated on other threads that if someone thinks they have to "feel sorry for their sins" they have added works and "are therefore not saved." That's what I said.
You have made it clear on other threads that you believe people who are not saved will burn for eternity, so I hope your statement above means you are beginning to doubt that.
Not only is it clear, but it's exactly what I said. Where's the twisting? I didn't say that you said there is anything wrong with feeling remorse. You have stated on other threads that if someone thinks they have to "feel sorry for their sins" they have added works and "are therefore not saved." That's what I said.
You have made it clear on other threads that you believe people who are not saved will burn for eternity, so I hope your statement above means you are beginning to doubt that.
Be clear on this. Be absolutely clear. Everyone who dies without Christ is going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. Whether that fire is literal or figurative, it denotes unending conscious punishment. Mark 9:48 'where their worm does not die [denotes INTERNAL torment - mental anquish] and the fire is not quenched [denotes EXTERNAL torment]
If the word 'fire' is figurative, it is because figurative language is used to describe something that cannot be adequately described by human language. Figurative language is not used to make something seem worse than it really is. In other words, if the word 'fire' is figurative, it is because it is the strongest possible way of describing the punishment that awaits those who reject Christ as Savior. Whatever the exact nature of the 'fire', the resurrected body of the unbeliever will be indestructable and will exist forever in the conditions that are to found in the environment of the lake of fire.
And there will be degrees of punishment. Those who had the greater opportunity to receive Christ as Savior but refused to will suffer greater punishment than those who had less opportunity. And there will be no one to blame except for themselves.
Be clear on this. Be absolutely clear. Everyone who dies without Christ is going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. Whether that fire is literal or figurative, it denotes unending conscious punishment. Mark 9:48 'where their worm does not die [denotes INTERNAL torment - mental anquish] and the fire is not quenched [denotes EXTERNAL torment]
If the word 'fire' is figurative, it is because figurative language is used to describe something that cannot be adequately described by human language. Figurative language is not used to make something seem worse than it really is. In other words, if the word 'fire' is figurative, it is because it is the strongest possible way of describing the punishment that awaits those who reject Christ as Savior. Whatever the exact nature of the 'fire', the resurrected body of the unbeliever will be indestructable and will exist forever in the conditions that are to found in the environment of the lake of fire.
And there will be degrees of punishment. Those who had the greater opportunity to receive Christ as Savior but refused to will suffer greater punishment than those who had less opportunity. And there will be no one to blame except for themselves.
As I've said so many times, for the ETer - salvation is ALL ABOUT ESCAPING from an imagined HELL. It is this fear that motivates all ET believers. They do not have the luxury of contemplating the riches of God's love and mercy because they do not have time to 'Be Still" and know that He is God. Christians who believe your doctrine are terribly oppressed and certainly are not liberated from fear.
As I've said so many times, for the ETer - salvation is ALL ABOUT ESCAPING from an imagined HELL. It is this fear that motivates all ET believers. They do not have the luxury of contemplating the riches of God's love and mercy because they do not have time to 'Be Still" and know that He is God. Christians who believe your doctrine are terribly oppressed and certainly are not liberated from fear.
That's not true at all. You will notice that the word of God speaks of both God's love and of His justice. It speaks both of heaven and of the alternative for those who reject Christ. The believer is eternally secure and cannot lose his salvation. Therefore, where is this fear you speak of? And of what oppression do you speak when knowledge of the truth sets the believer free? One aspect of eternal salvation is indeed avoiding the penalty of the everlasting torment in the lake of fire which awaits the one who rejects Christ as Savior. You will notice yet again that Jesus who spoke of heaven spoke also of Gehenna - the lake of fire. Jesus who spoke of God's love spoke also of God's wrath.
For you to say that the lake of fire is an imagined place shows your divorcement from reality regarding that which the word of God so plainly teaches. It shows your rejection of revealed truth.
And just so that you are clear, the reality of the fate which awaits the unbeliever does not torment me in the least. That doesn't mean that I don't care, but all I can do is speak the truth of the matter. If people will not listen, then it is on their heads and they have only themselves to blame. And now, it is late and I am going to go have a good nights sleep.
That's not true at all. You will notice that the word of God speaks of both God's love and of His justice. It speaks both of heaven and of the alternative for those who reject Christ. The believer is eternally secure and cannot lose his salvation. Therefore, where is this fear you speak of? And of what oppression do you speak when knowledge of the truth sets the believer free? One aspect of eternal salvation is indeed avoiding the penalty of the everlasting torment in the lake of fire which awaits the one who rejects Christ as Savior. You will notice yet again that Jesus who spoke of heaven spoke also of Gehenna - the lake of fire. Jesus who spoke of God's love spoke also of God's wrath.
For you to say that the lake of fire is an imagined place shows your divorcement from reality regarding that which the word of God so plainly teaches. It shows your rejection of revealed truth.
And just so that you are clear, the reality of the fate which awaits the unbeliever does not torment me in the least. That doesn't mean that I don't care, but all I can do is speak the truth of the matter. If people will not listen, then it is on their heads and they have only themselves to blame. And now, it is late and I am going to go have a good nights sleep.
Hi Mike!
I hope this message finds you well-rested. I'm already almost at lunch hour, but I'm on a diet so it doesn't matter too much..
Anyway,
I disagree with your post, and with the general belief of "turn or burn" for several, real-life reasons.
My first reason is sanity. You may not care about the fate of other people, but I do. And running around like a chicken with its head cut off, trying to "get everyone into heaven before they die" is not realistic nor possible. The fact that you're sleeping right now confirms that you see things the same way. If we had to "get the message out in order to save souls," there'd be no time for sleep. Which bring me to my second reason.
My second reason is the necessity of fulfilling basic life functions:
eating
drinking
getting a job
working (how can someone work at a computer or factory all day while souls are dying every hour???)
sleeping
relaxing (sabbath or not)
watching tv
browsing the internet
having a picnic with family
going shopping
seeking a partner
helping the kids with their homework
sending an email/letter
fixing a broken pipe
going to the bathroom
taking cold medication
telling someone you love them
solving a math problem
paying the bills
having a baby
buying the groceries
having the car fixed
spending time with grandparents
voting
taking a vacation
resolving an argument
drawing with crayons
going to the bank
talking with the phone company about new rates
driving to work
waiting for the laundry
washing the car
getting dressed
......
Well, I think you get the idea.
All of these things take time, and we would not be involved with them if people's eternal fates were at stake. In fact, I don't think we'd even take the time to wash ourselves, if we TRULY believed that people were falling into some eternal abyss of fire every hour.
Thirdly, another very basic fact of life, is that people die at all ages.
If there were such a thing as "age of accountability," then we should hope to God that we would get hit by a bus before we reached it. People wouldn't have children. After all, why risk it? Why put their souls at stake?
In real life, people die, get sick, get lost, get confused. That is the condition of the real world.
This is the world that God has put us in, and He will find the way for all of us to be rejoined to Him in the end. The early church was not preaching hell, and I think this is why they didn't. They knew that God is a God of Love, not a God of indifference.
Love ya all the same Mike!
brian
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I didn't say that you said there is anything wrong with feeling remorse. You have stated on other threads that if someone thinks they have to "feel sorry for their sins" they have added works and "are therefore not saved." That's what I said.
