The Truth versus the Lie (paradise, believer, Moses, priest)

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by little elmer

The carnal mind is enmity with God (the enemy). The flesh is opposed to Christ (antichrist). Without putting blame anywhere else, I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing.

Satan is real, as He's a tool used by God to show us our need for Him (created to destroy the carnal nature in us). Agree with thine adversary quickly while you're in the way. (Mat 5:25)



The Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)



http://www.city-data.com/forum/11302401-post1.html



Fair enough, but here's the way I interpret the sum of scripture:

No man is fit for the Kingdom until his flesh has been completely dealt with. Jesus said we must take up our cross if we are to follow Him; a cross is not for wearing around the neck, or hanging for decoration - it's a tool meant to kill people, and we must die to the flesh - before that, no flesh will glory in His presence.

So that brings us to the place of natural expiration...has anyone been perfected in this realm? You will say, "We are clean in His sight upon receiving Him". I get that and partaily agree - except that again, we are not pure (meaning: without mixture) until the flesh has been dealt with.

And there's a lot of flesh around here and everywhere in the Christian faith.

God is holy, and He will have a holy people - they are the first fruits company, imo; and they will be the representatives to take His anointing to the world. Furthermore, the fires spoken of in Revelation (APOKALUPSIS)are designed to do just that: equip them for real ministry.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ

That's what I believe.

Excellent post. I keep realizing to my chagrin that I'm not yet fully dead to sin. It's frustrating to try to keep that flesh down in the dust and ashes. Arg....!!!

Heartsong

[Eusebius]

It must be Mike either has me on iggy or he can't answer my posts.

Mike, have you done an exhaustive study on the word "ransom" though the Old and New Testaments?

Have you proven to yourself that every animal and every human ransomed MUST BE FREED and was freed?

Why would God change the meaning of "ransom" all of a sudden from the Old Testament to the New when the word is dealing with all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6? He hasn't.

Mike, your problem is you think that if God is saving people by faith during this age that He can't save anyone after this age.

Like I've said before, God is saving just x number of people during this age to be in the "church" or "ecclesia" for work in His administration during the next two ages. But if you think we are the only ones ever to be saved, why, oh why, Mike, does the Bible tell us the church has a mission. That mission is to head up ALL in the Christ, all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Christ, IN WHOM OUR LOT WAS CAST ALSO.? (Read about it in Ephesians 1.

Mike, and you who believe in eternal torment (you know who you are), study the word "ransom." Look at 1 Timothy 2:4-6. It does not say "God wants all mankind to be saved if they will just believe." What does it say? "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for ALL." The elipsis for "ALL" is "mankind." Since all have been ransomed, all must eventually be freed into God's salvation.

Remember, this (the ransom) is so powerful Satan will use so-called "Christians" on this message board to try to tell you that man just save themselves. They will tell you Christ's death just made salvation possible, the rest is up to you. They will tell you God will have all mankind to be saved but it is really up to man's free will to make the right choice for Him to save anyone. These wolves in sheeps clothing are real smooth talkers. Remember, Satan wants to limit what comes out of Christ's Sacrifice. He hates God and Christ and hates you too. He wants you to go through life discouraged or through life like a pharisee. Don't give in to Satan's lies. Believe God and Christ!

[sschulz]

Hey Mike how ya doing?

I know we have sparred before and we disagree about what the Bible says and what it acually means and will continue to do so. I know you believe what you are saying. We will continue to disagree but I hope not be disagreeable.

In one of your posts( #17) you say that Satin was a perfect angel till he rebelled against God. You quote Ezekial 28:16. We both know that is about the King of Tyre not Satin. Now when I point this out to some people I have had them say , Well it is about the spirit of Satin expressed though the King of Tyre. Even if this were so there is large holes in the logic. If Satin was perfecrt how could he rebel? Well they respond he had free will. Well even if he had free will how could a perfect being rebel against God who is perfect. For Satin to rebel there must have been jelousy in his heart and that means he was not perfect and God made a mistake so God is not perfect. If there was no jelousy he would not rebel.

Satin was a murderer and a liar from the beginning so he could not be a perfect angel. Satin was created to be what he was a foe to man and a waster to destroy.

[Zero 7]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

It must be Mike either has me on iggy or he can't answer my posts.

Mike, have you done an exhaustive study on the word "ransom" though the Old and New Testaments?

Have you proven to yourself that every animal and every human ransomed MUST BE FREED and was freed?

Why would God change the meaning of "ransom" all of a sudden from the Old Testament to the New when the word is dealing with all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6? He hasn't.

Mike, your problem is you think that if God is saving people by faith during this age that He can't save anyone after this age.

Like I've said before, God is saving just x number of people during this age to be in the "church" or "ecclesia" for work in His administration during the next two ages. But if you think we are the only ones ever to be saved, why, oh why, Mike, does the Bible tell us the church has a mission. That mission is to head up ALL in the Christ, all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Christ, IN WHOM OUR LOT WAS CAST ALSO.? (Read about it in Ephesians 1.

Mike, and you who believe in eternal torment (you know who you are), study the word "ransom." Look at 1 Timothy 2:4-6. It does not say "God wants all mankind to be saved if they will just believe." What does it say? "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for ALL." The elipsis for "ALL" is "mankind." Since all have been ransomed, all must eventually be freed into God's salvation.

Remember, this (the ransom) is so powerful Satan will use so-called "Christians" on this message board to try to tell you that man just save themselves. They will tell you Christ's death just made salvation possible, the rest is up to you. They will tell you God will have all mankind to be saved but it is really up to man's free will to make the right choice for Him to save anyone. These wolves in sheeps clothing are real smooth talkers. Remember, Satan wants to limit what comes out of Christ's Sacrifice. He hates God and Christ and hates you too. He wants you to go through life discouraged or through life like a pharisee. Don't give in to Satan's lies. Believe God and Christ!

What a fantastic post. To God be the glory.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by sschulz

Hey Mike how ya doing?

I know we have sparred before and we disagree about what the Bible says and what it acually means and will continue to do so. I know you believe what you are saying. We will continue to disagree but I hope not be disagreeable.

In one of your posts( #17) you say that Satin was a perfect angel till he rebelled against God. You quote Ezekial 28:16. We both know that is about the King of Tyre not Satin. Now when I point this out to some people I have had them say , Well it is about the spirit of Satin expressed though the King of Tyre. Even if this were so there is large holes in the logic.

Hi sschulz.

Ezekiel 28 is indeed about the power behind the king of Tyre. It describes the pristine Satan or Lucifer before the fall to establish an analogy with some of the glamor of the king of Tyre. Satan who is the motivator of the king of Tyre is actually the one being described in the passage. This is not unusual in Hebrew style. The same principle applys in the Messianic Psalms. For instance, in Psalms 16:10 David made a statement referring to himself, yet this statement can apply only to the Messiah. David in making that statement knew that at that time God would not allow him to die and his body decay. But the statement is also typological in that it describes the resurrection of Christ. The body of Christ did not undergo decay. In the same manner, Ezekiel makes a statement which goes beyond the king of Tyre.

Ezekiel 28:12 ''Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, ''You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.''

''Son of man'' refers to the prophet Ezekiel who is to take up a lamentation against the king of Tyre. Satan had inspired and perhaps personally indwelt the king of Tyre at this time in history. Satan often influences rulers in order to introduce his ideas into world history. Example: 1 Chronicles 21:1 'Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.

Satan is the ruler of this world. John 12:31 ''Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.''

John 14:30 ''I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.''

''You had the seal of perfection...'' This begins the description of Satan. The seal of perfection is an idiom which means ''to have finished proportions.'' Satan had been created with perfect proportions between wisdom and beauty.

[V13] ''You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering; The ruby, the topaz, and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx, and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise, and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanshp of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.''

Eden is not a reference to the garden of Eden in Genesis 2 and 3. It is a reference to the third heaven. The throne room of God. Satan had free access to the third heaven as he was in the position of an honor guard, the guardian of the throne room.

The twelve stones which are mentioned are spoken of only three times in the Bible. They are mentioned with reference to the breastplate of the high priest (Ex 28:17), with regard to the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:19,20); and in this passage concerning the garden of God. The twelve stones indicate special favor and beauty from God. Satan wore those stones in the presence of God as the guardian of the throne room.

''...the workmanship of your settings and sockets [your tabrets and your pipes] was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.'', is a description of Satan's voice which was like pipes. His voice was beautiful and melodious.

[v14] ''You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. This was Satan's job as the honor guard ot the throne room. ''To cover'' means to ''guard'' the throne - ''the holy mountain of God.'' ''You walked in the midst of the stones of fire'', the pristine Eden, the Garden of God, where no sin had ever existed.

[15] ''You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.'' Satan had been created by Jesus Christ without sin. But because he had been given free will, Satan eventually chose to rebel against God when he became proud. This was his moral fall.

[16] ''By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, and you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. ''The abundance of your trade'' is an idiom for ''prosperity.'' Satan had everything going for him but he couldn't handle the prosperity. ''You were internally filled with violence'', Satan developed power lust and desired to usurp the throne of God.

Satan's final and permanent expulsion from heaven is actully still future as is seen in Revelation 12: 7-17.

[17] ''Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by means of your splendor...''

If Satin was perfecrt how could he rebel? Well they respond he had free will. Well even if he had free will how could a perfect being rebel against God who is perfect. For Satin to rebel there must have been jelousy in his heart and that means he was not perfect and God made a mistake so God is not perfect. If there was no jelousy he would not rebel.

This is answered above. Satan was created perfect. [v15] ''You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.

The three Persons of the Godhead all have free will. But the will of any one of the Persons of the trinity is never in opposition to the will of the others. They are always in perfect agreement. But God's creatures (the angels and man) have free will and are capable of making choices which are in opposition to the will of God. This is necessary in order for free will to be free. God desires that angels and man choose from their own volition to obey Him. Sin originates from the volition of both angels and man. In man, the choice that Adam made to disobey God by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil created a propensity to sin --the old sin nature. Temptation comes from the sin nature, but the choice to sin comes from the volition. The woman was deceived by Satan and so sinned. Adam chose to remain with the woman and so chose to disobey God and eat the fruit. Adam's first sin caused the sin nature to come into existence. But without having a sin nature, Adam was able to commit that first sin because he was able to choose not to obey God's command to not the eat the fruit.

Satan's temptation came from his own beauty and the prosperity he enjoyed. He couldn't handle it and became prideful.

[v15] ''You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.

[17] Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.

Satan as a free moral agent had the ability to choose to remain obedient to God or to rebel against him. And one-third of the angels chose to side with Satan.

Satin was a murderer and a liar from the beginning so he could not be a perfect angel. Satin was created to be what he was a foe to man and a waster to destroy.

God is perfect and will always be perfect. He cannot disobey Himself. But angels and man, both of whom were created perfect and without sin could certainly use their volition to disobey God. Free will must be free to obey or disobey God.


John 8:44 ''...he [Satan] was a murderer from the beginning.'' This simply means that Satan is the enemy of life and truth. By means of a lie he brought spiritual and physical death to the human race. (Gen 3:4, 13; 1 John 38, 10-15).
Satan continues to distort truth - there is no truth in him...he is a liar and the father of lies. His purpose is to lead people away from God who is the source of life and truth (2 Cor 4:4).

I quote again the following two verses from Ezekiel 28.

[v15] ''You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Blameless is the Hebrew word Tamim and means 'complete, sound, perfect, upright, unblemished, whole, without defect,

[17] Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by Zero 7

Mike555, maybe you can give us a few examples where we're all over the map regarding our beliefs? I mean actual quotes from previous threads?

All over the map? I don't know of any denomination of Universalist Christian but how many Fundmentalist/Christian denominations are there with differing creeds? Well, they're all over the map. The difference. The common ground among UR believers is that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. The common ground among Fundamentalists: Christ will lose many and send those on the "wide road" to everlasting hell.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

It must be Mike either has me on iggy or he can't answer my posts.

Mike, have you done an exhaustive study on the word "ransom" though the Old and New Testaments?

Have you proven to yourself that every animal and every human ransomed MUST BE FREED and was freed?

Why would God change the meaning of "ransom" all of a sudden from the Old Testament to the New when the word is dealing with all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6? He hasn't.

Mike, your problem is you think that if God is saving people by faith during this age that He can't save anyone after this age.

This side of death, anyone of any dispensation, while they are physically alive can come to Christ for salvation. But after physical death there is no salvation. There is only judgment.

Like I've said before, God is saving just x number of people during this age to be in the "church" or "ecclesia" for work in His administration during the next two ages. But if you think we are the only ones ever to be saved, why, oh why, Mike, does the Bible tell us the church has a mission. That mission is to head up ALL in the Christ, all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Christ, IN WHOM OUR LOT WAS CAST ALSO.? (Read about it in Ephesians 1.

Mike, and you who believe in eternal torment (you know who you are), study the word "ransom." Look at 1 Timothy 2:4-6. It does not say "God wants all mankind to be saved if they will just believe." What does it say? "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for ALL." The elipsis for "ALL" is "mankind." Since all have been ransomed, all must eventually be freed into God's salvation.

Remember, this (the ransom) is so powerful Satan will use so-called "Christians" on this message board to try to tell you that man just save themselves. They will tell you Christ's death just made salvation possible, the rest is up to you. They will tell you God will have all mankind to be saved but it is really up to man's free will to make the right choice for Him to save anyone. These wolves in sheeps clothing are real smooth talkers. Remember, Satan wants to limit what comes out of Christ's Sacrifice. He hates God and Christ and hates you too. He wants you to go through life discouraged or through life like a pharisee. Don't give in to Satan's lies. Believe God and Christ!

All mankind has been ransomed from the slave market of sin. That means that sin is not the issue in salvation. Man is free to come to Christ by walking over the line where the barrier of sin used to be. He does this by making a volitional decision to place his faith in Christ for the purpose of receiving the offer of the gift of eternal salvation. Man is free to reject the work that Christ did on the cross on his behalf and remain unsaved.

Anyone in any dispensation is free to respond to God's offer of eternal life though faith in Christ. People in Old Testament times looked to the cross which was still future. That is, they believed in the promise of the Messiah who was to come. In the dispensation of the church, the cross has happened historically and those who look to the cross are eternally saved. All who refuse to avail themselves of what Christ did on their behalf remain under condemnation. The same applies to those in the tribulation and the Millennial kingdom. The Millennial kingdom is not eternity. It is a dispensation of human history.

The Scriptures are clear that eternal salvation is contengent upon a volitional decision to believe in Christ for salvation.

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have etenal life. Jesus died for the sins of the world, freeing man from the penalty of sin. Sin is not the issue in salvation. The issue is 'WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM', shall not perish. The other side of the coin is that 'WHOEVER DOES NOT BELIEVE IN HIM SHALL PERISH.'

John 3: 36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. All who die without having placed their personal fiath in Christ shall NEVER see life -- that is, they will not spend eternity in the presence of God, but will spend the eternal future in separation from God.

2 Thess 1:7 '...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, This passage refers to the Lord's return at the end of the tribulation when all tribulational unbelievers will be removed from the earth and be eternally separated from God.

Eusibuis, I know full well, that you are not going to accept the truth of this and so I am not about to waste my time going back and forth on it. I have replyed to the post in order to make the issue clear. And that I have done.

[Zero 7]

Satan had been created with perfect proportions between wisdom and beauty.

Mike555, that's weird. The bible I read says Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Hmmm...

Oh, one more question. Just curious about this...if you found out FOR A FACT that UR was real, would you be happy or mad?

I also find it a bit curious most ET'ers here aren't burdened too much about others suffering forever. Odd that it torments some but not others.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by Zero 7

Mike555, that's weird. The bible I read says Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Hmmm...

I already addressed what that means at the bottom of post #35.

Oh, one more question. Just curious about this...if you found out FOR A FACT that UR was real, would you be happy or mad?

Irrelevant since the word of God makes clear the eternal disposition of those who who not place their faith in Christ for salvation. The question is an appeal to the emotions.

I also find it a bit curious most ET'ers here aren't burdened too much about others suffering forever. Odd that it torments some but not others.

People make their own choices and must bear the consequences of those decisions. All that the believer can do is to give the gospel message. If people refuse to listen to the gospel message and reject it instead, then their choice is on their own heads.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

It allows the athesist to have their cake and eat it to.

Actually, it allows God to have His cake and eat it too! We all agree that God at least WANTS everyone to be saved.

Christian Universalists believe God gets what He wants, but ETers believe he doesn't.

CUs believe everyone reaps what they sow (justice), but most ETers believe that Christians don't have to pay for any of their sins because they just go to heaven and live happily ever after, whereas non-Christians reap WAY MORE punishment than is even possible to sow.