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2 Thess. 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.... Jesus told His followers that no-one knew when He would return, not even Himself. He said that the day would come as a surprise, and for that reason every believer was to live as if the day would be soon, thus they would always be ready. False teachers however did set dates sending the church into a panic, so Paul here was reassuring the Thessalonians saying "hey guys, don't be alarmed, there's a few things that prophecy tells us must take place first..."
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. It is believed by scholars that the Thessalonians had actually received forged letters purportedly from "Paul" saying that Jesus would be returning soon. 3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The falling away indicates a great moving away from the fundamental truths of the gospel into a state of apostasy.This falling away would thus reveal the 'antichrist' of scripture spoken of in many places. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This 'antichrist' (which incidentally means 'in place of' or 'instead of' in the original Greek) would take to himself certain prerogatives that belong only to Christ, thus setting himself up in the church as head, judge, and chief authority over the church, having the power to forgive sin, claiming sole right to interpret scripture, and claiming the power to judge who is saved and who isn't.
This power is spoken of in Daniel 7 as 'a little horn' which grows out of the fourth empire, Rome. Those prophecies of Daniel began to be fulfilled from the moment they were given, unfolding throughout history even till our day. Prophecy, and the fulfilment of it down through the ages, is undeniable proof of the inspiration of scripture. Jesus told His followers how prophecy was to be understood. Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
As we study the prophecies and compare them with past history, we can know where we are on the earth's time-line. The falling away took place in the 4th and 5th centuries with the establishment of the papacy, whose characteristics above I am sure you recognised.
Thsi antichrist power the Bible says would suffer a mortal head wound. This took place in 1798 when the pope was captured by the French general Berthier and he died in exile 2 years later. The papal states were confiscated and Rome declared a republic with the college of cardinals having been disbanded. Politicians and world leaders of the time thought she was finished. However, the Bible also says that the wound would be healed. Mussolini in 1929 reinstated the pope to his civil throne returning to him the Vatican city, and the RCC once again became a church/state union as in the dark ages. Today, the wound is fully healed with the current pope and his predecessor enjoying unprecedented influence in world politics.
The Bible says that after the healing the antichrist would grow to be a world power having global authority. I recommend a book "The keys to this Blood" by Malachi Martin, a Jesuit priest who unveils the ambitions of the Vatican. Those ambitions align perfectly with prophecy, just as I revealed in my OP. Not just a global political authority, but a global religious authority, establishing religious laws upon all the inhabitants of the earth in keeping with her own particular slant on worship (the mark of the beast). A New World order which incorporates both religious and civil paradigms into a single union.
The harlot woman (the apostate church) riding the beast (the civil power or state) reveals a union of church and state where the state supports the church, but the church rules the state. We are living in the times when this will happen. And it will be bad news for everyone; freedom of conscience (which I am sure even you would support) will be abolished. Freedom of speech, the press, and many other freedoms we take for granted in the west, will be lost. And any canny observer can see these things happening now.
2 Thess. 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.... Jesus told His followers that no-one knew when He would return, not even Himself. He said that the day would come as a surprise, and for that reason every believer was to live as if the day would be soon, thus they would always be ready. False teachers however did set dates sending the church into a panic, so Paul here was reassuring the Thessalonians saying "hey guys, don't be alarmed, there's a few things that prophecy tells us must take place first..."
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. It is believed by scholars that the Thessalonians had actually received forged letters purportedly from "Paul" saying that Jesus would be returning soon. 3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The falling away indicates a great moving away from the fundamental truths of the gospel into a state of apostasy.This falling away would thus reveal the 'antichrist' of scripture spoken of in many places. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This 'antichrist' (which incidentally means 'in place of' or 'instead of' in the original Greek) would take to himself certain prerogatives that belong only to Christ, thus setting himself up in the church as head, judge, and chief authority over the church, having the power to forgive sin, claiming sole right to interpret scripture, and claiming the power to judge who is saved and who isn't.
This power is spoken of in Daniel 7 as 'a little horn' which grows out of the fourth empire, Rome. Those prophecies of Daniel began to be fulfilled from the moment they were given, unfolding throughout history even till our day. Prophecy, and the fulfilment of it down through the ages, is undeniable proof of the inspiration of scripture. Jesus told His followers how prophecy was to be understood. Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
As we study the prophecies and compare them with past history, we can know where we are on the earth's time-line. The falling away took place in the 4th and 5th centuries with the establishment of the papacy, whose characteristics above I am sure you recognised.
Thsi antichrist power the Bible says would suffer a mortal head wound. This took place in 1798 when the pope was captured by the French general Berthier and he died in exile 2 years later. The papal states were confiscated and Rome declared a republic with the college of cardinals having been disbanded. Politicians and world leaders of the time thought she was finished. However, the Bible also says that the wound would be healed. Mussolini in 1929 reinstated the pope to his civil throne returning to him the Vatican city, and the RCC once again became a church/state union as in the dark ages. Today, the wound is fully healed with the current pope and his predecessor enjoying unprecedented influence in world politics.
The Bible says that after the healing the antichrist would grow to be a world power having global authority. I recommend a book "The keys to this Blood" by Malachi Martin, a Jesuit priest who unveils the ambitions of the Vatican. Those ambitions align perfectly with prophecy, just as I revealed in my OP. Not just a global political authority, but a global religious authority, establishing religious laws upon all the inhabitants of the earth in keeping with her own particular slant on worship (the mark of the beast). A New World order which incorporates both religious and civil paradigms into a single union.
The harlot woman (the apostate church) riding the beast (the civil power or state) reveals a union of church and state where the state supports the church, but the church rules the state. We are living in the times when this will happen. And it will be bad news for everyone; freedom of conscience (which I am sure even you would support) will be abolished. Freedom of speech, the press, and many other freedoms we take for granted in the west, will be lost. And any canny observer can see these things happening now.
I use to be a Christian once upon a time and I used to believe much of this (thankfully I don't anymore). This particular version sounds like the Seventh Day Adventist flavor.
In any event, there are a few passages in the New Testament itself that gives the very time frame in which Jesus was supposed to return or expected to return. None of them suggest 2,000 years (and counting) into the future. Again, you have to keeping moving the goal post further and further into the future to get this fantasy to work OR do like the preterist and spiritualize the passages to fit in the time frame of 2,000 years ago with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 60 C.E.
Matthew 24 is unfolding in our generation, but many have nothing but skepticism. What did it take for Pharaoh to finally believe? His army, the mightiest of its day, was swallowed up in the midst of the red sea; God overthrew it with a mighty hand of judgement. Pharaoh and his army apparently went down in a blaze of glory, like so many in our day are doing. What about Jezebel? How long had she withstood the God of Israel before she became meat for the dogs?
1 Kings 21:23 - And of Jezebel also spake the LORD, saying, The dogs shall eat Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.
Can anyone defy Almighty God and expect to survive? Don't be fooled by His longsuffering and forbearance, as it eventually ends. God offered up His ultimate blood sacrifice, Jesus, to extend mercy to whosoever will come. If that is ultimately rejected, woe unto them!
I use to be a Christian once upon a time and I used to believe much of this (thankfully I don't anymore).
That is a very curious statement to make. The Bible tells us that the true Christian has an ongoing personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. There are many promises throughout scripture that speak of this relationship.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Throughout the centuries millions have come to Christ because they believed these promises, and they found Him. Their relationship to Him was in fact so precious many gave their lives rather than deny Him. So your statement "I used to be a Christian" and others you have made to the effect you are now an atheist, confuse me. How can you claim that the one you had a relationship with now no longer exists? The only answers I can come up with is that your relationship or your Christianity wasn't real but was built on your own works rather than any submission to truth, or you did have some sort of relationship but now believe it was a sham and you were mistaken, deceived, or the whole thing was just a figment of your imagination. In either case, this is very sad, for those promises I quoted earlier are still relevant, for it was God Himself who made them. Christianity would have died an ignominious death 2000 years ago if those promises (and many more in the Bible covering scores of subjects) couldn't be realised as an experiential reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
In any event, there are a few passages in the New Testament itself that gives the very time frame in which Jesus was supposed to return or expected to return. None of them suggest 2,000 years (and counting) into the future. Again, you have to keeping moving the goal post further and further into the future to get this fantasy to work OR do like the preterist and spiritualize the passages to fit in the time frame of 2,000 years ago with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 60 C.E.
Yes, there are certain chronological events which needed to take place before the second coming, and yes, many early disciples thought it could be in their lifetime. A reasoned and focused study of prophecy however will open to the sincere reader of scripture an ongoing prophetic unfolding that has steadily brought us to the point where today, we can with assurance and authority, declare that there is very little left in prophecy yet to be fulfilled.
As far as earthquakes, pestilence and disease and climate upheavals that scripture warns of, it is said that they are like labour pains. True, that taken individually, there have always been earthquakes, famines, and disease etc.. But today we are experiencing them all at once. In my OP the focus of the post was not so much the earthquakes etc, but the coming together of the nations to solve the world's problems that rise from these disasters. So when you take the contextual perspective of Matt 24 the current political climate with Japan accepting help from even former enemies (only one generation ago) is not only unprecedented, but astonishing. And that fact standing beside the world's outpouring of assistance since Katrina, and then the Asian tsunami, the Aussie bushfires and floods, Haiti, Chile, and Christchurch, and you get a much broader picture that screams "Get ready".
The labour pains are going to get far more frequent, more intense, so much so that men's hearts will be failing them for fear of those things which are coming upon the earth.
Even atheist scientists, such as Dawkins, have gone on record as stating that there is little hope for earth's future. Admittedly, they are talking some time away yet, but their answers lie in getting off the planet altogether. That is their solution to the coming crisis. The Bible however in prophecy gives us a sure timeline. (For more detailed analysis on different aspects of prophecy see Prophecy and End-times. « Repairing the Breach. )
The message of the Bible in the face of the coming crisis is one of hope. Yes, this planet is dying, but the good news is that the Creator is returning to take His people home forever, and in the future the earth will be recreated afresh, with no more pollution, no more death, no more war, no more sickness and disease and heartache. The promise is sure, and it is coming soon,and the door to eternity is still open for all to enter in.
what is this yelling? what is this nay-saying? refuse to see the truth? truth hurts, does it not? it's like you deliberately refuse to see..
won't ask why. well, you know...
Truth??? No, it's not the truth that is hurting. It is the complete disregard of a CLEAR interpretation and aided with common sense. Now THAT is the truth!
That is a very curious statement to make. The Bible tells us that the true Christian has an ongoing personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. There are many promises throughout scripture that speak of this relationship.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Throughout the centuries millions have come to Christ because they believed these promises, and they found Him. Their relationship to Him was in fact so precious many gave their lives rather than deny Him. So your statement "I used to be a Christian" and others you have made to the effect you are now an atheist, confuse me. How can you claim that the one you had a relationship with now no longer exists? The only answers I can come up with is that your relationship or your Christianity wasn't real but was built on your own works rather than any submission to truth, or you did have some sort of relationship but now believe it was a sham and you were mistaken, deceived, or the whole thing was just a figment of your imagination. In either case, this is very sad, for those promises I quoted earlier are still relevant, for it was God Himself who made them. Christianity would have died an ignominious death 2000 years ago if those promises (and many more in the Bible covering scores of subjects) couldn't be realised as an experiential reality.
Yes, there are certain chronological events which needed to take place before the second coming, and yes, many early disciples thought it could be in their lifetime. A reasoned and focused study of prophecy however will open to the sincere reader of scripture an ongoing prophetic unfolding that has steadily brought us to the point where today, we can with assurance and authority, declare that there is very little left in prophecy yet to be fulfilled.
As far as earthquakes, pestilence and disease and climate upheavals that scripture warns of, it is said that they are like labour pains. True, that taken individually, there have always been earthquakes, famines, and disease etc.. But today we are experiencing them all at once. In my OP the focus of the post was not so much the earthquakes etc, but the coming together of the nations to solve the world's problems that rise from these disasters. So when you take the contextual perspective of Matt 24 the current political climate with Japan accepting help from even former enemies (only one generation ago) is not only unprecedented, but astonishing. And that fact standing beside the world's outpouring of assistance since Katrina, and then the Asian tsunami, the Aussie bushfires and floods, Haiti, Chile, and Christchurch, and you get a much broader picture that screams "Get ready".
The labour pains are going to get far more frequent, more intense, so much so that men's hearts will be failing them for fear of those things which are coming upon the earth.
Even atheist scientists, such as Dawkins, have gone on record as stating that there is little hope for earth's future. Admittedly, they are talking some time away yet, but their answers lie in getting off the planet altogether. That is their solution to the coming crisis. The Bible however in prophecy gives us a sure timeline. (For more detailed analysis on different aspects of prophecy see Prophecy and End-times. « Repairing the Breach. )
The message of the Bible in the face of the coming crisis is one of hope. Yes, this planet is dying, but the good news is that the Creator is returning to take His people home forever, and in the future the earth will be recreated afresh, with no more pollution, no more death, no more war, no more sickness and disease and heartache. The promise is sure, and it is coming soon,and the door to eternity is still open for all to enter in.
You sound like a pretty cool person and you do have a beautiful message of gloom tempered with hope; however, while beautiful, I already know the song and dance and as I suspected it had a Seventh day slant to it. I cannot accept it on quite a few grounds. Even if I had to entertain the idea, the hope is based on emptiness as the very bible indicates that what [some] Christians are looking for today (Jesus' second coming) should have already long past and even then he did NOT return in person. The words placed on his very lips EXPLICITLY states that he was to reutn in the time of those who hears his words or at least some time in that era. He did NOT and thus the target date has been shoved back, thus far, 2,000 years and counting.
You sound like a pretty cool person and you do have a beautiful message of gloom tempered with hope; however, while beautiful, I already know the song and dance and as I suspected it had a Seventh day slant to it. I cannot accept it on quite a few grounds. Even if I had to entertain the idea, the hope is based on emptiness as the very bible indicates that what [some] Christians are looking for today (Jesus' second coming) should have already long past and even then he did NOT return in person. The words placed on his very lips EXPLICITLY states that he was to reutn in the time of those who hears his words or at least some time in that era. He did NOT and thus the target date has been shoved back, thus far, 2,000 years and counting.
I assume you are referring to the following:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Jesus was not here referring to the generation at that specific time, or to the people He was addressing, but to the generation which witness the completeion of all the signs of His coming. He was saying that whoever witnessed the signs, would also witness His coming. That from the completeion of all the signs, there would be no more delay. That generation would see His return. Jesus had just given a detailed and succinct rundown on all the major events that were to take place before He came. Some would take place shortly after He went back to heaven such as the destruction of Jerusalem, others a little later such as the great tribulation which took place during the great persecutions of Christians by the RCC during the dark ages.
At the beginning of the chapter, as a result of being informed by Jesus of the impending destruction of the temple, the apostles asked two distinctly different questions......
1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
.....but the disciples themselves were confused at that time thinking that the second coming and the destruction of Jerusalem were one and the same event. Not surprising considering the importance the Jews placed on their capital city and the temple. The destruction of them would be for them a certain indication of the end of the world. But Jesus corrected this thinking, although it took some time to sink in.
What Jesus goes on to say to the end of the chapter answers both questions, but not all in a chronological fashion. However, when comparing the signs and events with other Biblical prophecies, particularly Daniel and Revelation, it all comes together and makes perfect sense. It is not a study for the faint-hearted, nor for the casual reader. It takes time, effort, and focus, and much prayer and willingness to let go what one has been previously taught, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach. Jesus was warning of two seperate events. The soon destruction of Jerusalem (which that generation witnessed) and the second coming (which this generation will witness because they have witnessed the completion of the other signs, [well, almost])
PS Cool guy? Such flattery! But I think you and I, despite our current differences, might be good friends and could sit down over a cuppa and discuss these things reasonably and peacefully without the rancour we both witness in other discussions on this board.
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