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That God put all mankind in Adam, and now He is expecting Christians to convince as many people to get saved as possible (from His own curse) before He "closes shop?"
Do you see it as your job to get people saved from God's curse?
Isn't that a bit hefty? How can a person sleep at night, if it is their responsability to get as many people to "choose Him" as possible before they die?
Is it our job to "clean up" God's mess?
Hoping we can discuss this with respect..
Blessings of love to all,
brian
That's RIGHT. We're doing EXACTLY what were suppose to as Christians by trying to save as many people as possible before they die. I recently read another vision about a woman who was taken to Heaven and she there is actually angels and a place in Heaven for death bed converts!! This lines up EXACTLY with NDE accounts of death bed converts who saw "shining white lights" and "bright glory" right after they converted! You should be on a MISSION to save as many people as you can! Passing out gospel tracts, street preaching, visit hospitals with people who haven't accepted christ, online preaching, my God! There's a whole world of resources for you to use to save people! Now for me, I'm only a high school student and have 8 hours of school and subjects to study but if I had the means and money do all these things I would do it joyfully! I use what I can but I don't think it's enough! People are entering Hell everyday! It's up to us to change their paths and get them on that narrow road! It's up to us to save them from a place of eternal torment and misery! Make a plan to get people to Heaven! You can do it!
Just last night, I talked to my catholic friend ON TEXT about the Lord and how to go to Heaven! I couldn't believe he responded well and thanked me for explaining it to him! I don't know if he really did but I'm taking faith whatever he choses to do, the holy spirit will guide him. Over spring break, I talked to several of my friends (who I didn't know their religious affiliation) if they had Christ in their lives and at least two of them confirmed they did and responded well to me! The power of the Lord is strong! You can plant seeds of faith in people by mere explanation! It only takes exposure to the truth and word of God! The rest will be lead by the holy spirit!
I think it's interesting how so many people blindly follow biblical text without realizing how archaeology has verified and corrected parts of it. I hear people quoting passages that have been proven inaccurate. At times, it becomes more entertaining than the Sunday Comics in the newpaper.
Questions for you, Who created Adam and Eve with a carnal heart? Who put Adam and Eve in the Garden? Who put good and evil in the same tree? Who put the tree in the Garden? Who put Satin in the garden to tempt them? Who knew what was going to happen and how to make it happen?
Adam and Eve did not have a chance. Remember God is in control of his creation at all times. The clay is marred in the potters hand but the clay never leaves the potters hand.
You err in your interpretation of scripture, for God's will was, and still is, to turn over the power to choose right or wrong into the hands of free moral agents. Did God not say, "Let us make man in our own image" ? Mankind has freewill, yet some use a few scriptures that they don't understand with their carnal minds to distort God's will in this matter.
Questions for you, Who created Adam and Eve with a carnal heart? Who put Adam and Eve in the Garden? Who put good and evil in the same tree? Who put the tree in the Garden? Who put Satin in the garden to tempt them? Who knew what was going to happen and how to make it happen?
Adam and Eve did not have a chance. Remember God is in control of his creation at all times. The clay is marred in the potters hand but the clay never leaves the potters hand.
And that is really where the fundamentalist traditional interpretation of scriptures first hits a snare and falls flat ...
If God did not want Adam and eve to eat of the tree of knowledge, then why did he put the serpent(the most subtle and devious creature in all creation) in the garden to begin with?
Thats even worse than telling my 14 year old son not to masturbate and then locking locking him in a room full of Pornography ... What makes it worse is that Adam and eve had absolutely no concept of evil or suffering or consequences ... Even though God told them that they would die, they did not comprehend death because they had never experienced it, or pain for that matter.
The fact is a person cannot become righteous unless they experience and by the grace of God eventually overcome sin and evil. Innocence is not the state that God ever truly intended for humanity, he created man in his own image and after his own likeness, but mankind never became truly like God until they came to know good and evil to begin with.
The same thing will happen at the end of the millennial reign ... For some unknown reason God chooses to release satan into the world AGAIN to deceive the nations ... Why?
And in the book of Job we plainly see that satan cannot do anything unless God specifically allows him to, so if satan is responsible for the fall of man, then its only because God allowed him to do it for his own reasons.
The fact is, the traditional orthodox fundamentalist interpretations of scriptures are lacking in every regard ...
You err in your interpretation of scripture, for God's will was, and still is, to turn over the power to choose right or wrong into the hands of free moral agents. Did God not say, "Let us make man in our own image" ? Mankind has freewill, yet some use a few scriptures that they don't understand with their carnal minds to distort God's will in this matter.
This coming from a person who believes that God deceives himself ...
Does God have free will? If so, then how come he cannot change or lie or do any evil?
God cannot lie(though he can send a lying spirit) or change himself because he cannot go against his own nature, just as man cannot go against his own nature, unless his nature is changed by God. A leopard cannot change its own spots ...
And that is exactly what Paul teaches when he says that a natural person cannot comprehend or receive the spiritual things of God. They cannot choose to understand and receive them by free moral agency, but must be born again of the spirit by the power of God and only then can they repent and believe, but until then it is impossible for them.
The false doctrine of free will is one of the greatest lies that Satan ever used to deceive the masses, a lie which fundamentalist religions around the world use to condemn the people ... But God is in control, and he has a good reason for allowing Satan to deceive the world, it doesn't matter if you don't believe it now, because one day you will ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 03-28-2011 at 12:42 PM..
It can not have proceeded from free will. If the idea is that will, as free, is free to do both good and bad: well, the will that can do evil, violate ethics, is not biblically free, other wise the freedom promised by Christ makes him out to be a moron-if one can do evil one will (as one can not be somewhat sinful and not at the same time), as one, at least from the first is a slave to evil. The notion here is that what can fix it all is again a free choice (the modern christian contradiction). Both places consciousness in an awkward position, and as we are a society on psychological hyperdrive, we would tend to see it all as a psychological play out rather than an ethical drama (the OT should hint at this with its legal obsession).
Before the "fall"-the two are in ignorance, and freedom would be unknown, only immediate, just as pain and pleasure are unknown as distinct concepts (symbolized by the tree of knowledge)-so a free will would lack reflection and then be not much of a free will. Because they disobeyed, means they were not free as we think freedom is, as the "state" changes because it can, and, therefore, is a necessary change (I know, most christian want it all to be a test, a cute little challenge)-man is condemned to this working out of good and evil because it is who he is-only the god concept is free from this problem and; therefore, only truly free (the notion is at the eschaton, the "law" is written on the hearts of those who believe, therefore, they will remain in the ethical and be truly free as well).
The necessity of the change is figured in the satan, it is in the inner garden (isn't that odd to anyone?). The satan is a rational structure constructed up by Eve (as rational it is or would be considered in old philosophy as a "spirit" being)-the dilemma here is ethics not psychological freedom. The structure she forms up leads her to take of the fruit, as logical structures are structures that proceed logically, and especially from her distrust of the god; a distrust only placated by her need for equality with the god (this is the common problem in all of the race today, that is why we all construct up our own concept of the god, even when using bible passages to supplement). She doesn't freely choose the fruit, it is logically for her to do so (this is evil because the logic has her violate the ethical); our psychological analysis interposes some sense of freedom because that is one of our cultural metaphysical pillars; especially required for the modern mind and democracy.
Woman, in this religion, is the last created, from flesh not dirt, so she is the higher ordered and most "spiritual" (inner consciously constructed, most like god of the two). The man is the less "spiritual" so the evil rises first in her (it is reversed in the Greek); the man takes it merely on recommendation as being the dumber. Her punishment is to be ruled over by the less capable.
The modern christian idea, which rejects election (the called out ones) and predestination (a synthesis of accident and necessity by god's will: fate is just the synthesis of accident and necessity), through this free will idea, assumes will has the power to hear "god's call" and accept it. This has to go along with the free will fall idea. Man must always be free. But the problem is that this sinful will must have the ability to step outside of itself, to annul itself with another idea (which makes christianity a mere agnostic form of religion and sets philosophy above theology). This places the "fallen" consciousness in a very high state of conception as having an ability denied to it by the bible; perhaps higher than the state that is followed by it by the so called new birth. The fallen state must have the ability to kill itself for a higher cause-or save the self through the transition of the self to another self. This is hardly a sinful being before conversion and really does not need conversion. To account for such things, the catholics has placed in this fallen man a residual of "light" so he ain't really totally fallen, just somewhat, and methodists have added a temporary dispensation of light for the decision process-all just to save man's precious free will.
I think it's interesting how so many people blindly follow biblical text without realizing how archaeology has verified and corrected parts of it. I hear people quoting passages that have been proven inaccurate. At times, it becomes more entertaining than the Sunday Comics in the newpaper.
It can not have proceeded from free will. If the idea is that will, as free, is free to do both good and bad: well, the will that can do evil, violate ethics, is not biblically free, other wise the freedom promised by Christ makes him out to be a moron-if one can do evil one will (as one can not be somewhat sinful and not at the same time), as one, at least from the first is a slave to evil. The notion here is that what can fix it all is again a free choice (the modern christian contradiction). Both places consciousness in an awkward position, and as we are a society on psychological hyperdrive, we would tend to see it all as a psychological play out rather than an ethical drama (the OT should hint at this with its legal obsession).
Before the "fall"-the two are in ignorance, and freedom would be unknown, only immediate, just as pain and pleasure are unknown as distinct concepts (symbolized by the tree of knowledge)-so a free will would lack reflection and then be not much of a free will. Because they disobeyed, means they were not free as we think freedom is, as the "state" changes because it can, and, therefore, is a necessary change (I know, most christian want it all to be a test, a cute little challenge)-man is condemned to this working out of good and evil because it is who he is-only the god concept is free from this problem and; therefore, only truly free (the notion is at the eschaton, the "law" is written on the hearts of those who believe, therefore, they will remain in the ethical and be truly free as well).
The necessity of the change is figured in the satan, it is in the inner garden (isn't that odd to anyone?). The satan is a rational structure constructed up by Eve (as rational it is or would be considered in old philosophy as a "spirit" being)-the dilemma here is ethics not psychological freedom. The structure she forms up leads her to take of the fruit, as logical structures are structures that proceed logically, and especially from her distrust of the god; a distrust only placated by her need for equality with the god (this is the common problem in all of the race today, that is why we all construct up our own concept of the god, even when using bible passages to supplement). She doesn't freely choose the fruit, it is logically for her to do so (this is evil because the logic has her violate the ethical); our psychological analysis interposes some sense of freedom because that is one of our cultural metaphysical pillars; especially required for the modern mind and democracy.
Woman, in this religion, is the last created, from flesh not dirt, so she is the higher ordered and most "spiritual" (inner consciously constructed, most like god of the two). The man is the less "spiritual" so the evil rises first in her (it is reversed in the Greek); the man takes it merely on recommendation as being the dumber. Her punishment is to be ruled over by the less capable.
The modern christian idea, which rejects election (the called out ones) and predestination (a synthesis of accident and necessity by god's will: fate is just the synthesis of accident and necessity), through this free will idea, assumes will has the power to hear "god's call" and accept it. This has to go along with the free will fall idea. Man must always be free. But the problem is that this sinful will must have the ability to step outside of itself, to annul itself with another idea (which makes christianity a mere agnostic form of religion and sets philosophy above theology). This places the "fallen" consciousness in a very high state of conception as having an ability denied to it by the bible; perhaps higher than the state that is followed by it by the so called new birth. The fallen state must have the ability to kill itself for a higher cause-or save the self through the transition of the self to another self. This is hardly a sinful being before conversion and really does not need conversion. To account for such things, the catholics has placed in this fallen man a residual of "light" so he ain't really totally fallen, just somewhat, and methodists have added a temporary dispensation of light for the decision process-all just to save man's precious free will.
GOOD POST!!
Man is not "free to choose Christ" for at least 3 reasons:
1) he is born in sin
2) the things of God are foolishness to him
3) he does not have the capability to understand what he is "choosing." What is heaven? What is hell? He has neither seen them nor known them. So it is impossible to accurately "choose" between 2 things that he has never seen nor can comprehend.
Add to this, that God sends evil spirits, eyes of slumber, delusions, a reprobate mind, satan, etc.... -And you must conclude that man is at a serious disadvantage.
This is why I believe that God put all men in Adam; it was done on purpose so that in the end, He would put all men in Christ.
The work is 110% HIS, not ours.
Aisi..
When one looks at the bible, one must totally go into mind as there is no "outside", as it is words. Archaeology is also a text, but the mind depends on the "outside" (not totally as the outside remains idea brought in by sensate processes) objects which are not words (except in ancient texts and such). Both as idea, but different in "textual" construction, depend on interpretations. As interpretations both depend on discipline specific structures to "know" what it is looking at (these blind one to other methods but keeps the discipline distinct). Words form up thoughts or are closer to the ideas that they express. A piece of pottery and such have the idea within it but can not express that idea into words or direct thought, so it is less in the expression of the idea (for instance, one needs to classify the egyptians out to know how they thought, philosophically, a look at their aesthetics makes them very different from us, and they are no longer here to explain themselves). So it is less; just as in aesthetics, poetry is the highest form as it can more directly express thought because it is words rather than, say a sculpture which is mute.
As a christian thread, rather than an archaeology thread, this thread should use the structures and tools of its trade. If one requires the introduction of the "certainties" of another discipline to rule here than one looses the christian and the one advocating such a move is a moron who does not understand the distinction of the modern mind into areas of concentration.
Archaeology is also subject to its blind faiths and bias developments and what is funny is to see people follow these dialectical developing disciplines as if they contained "gospel" truth, a bringing in of the religious into a science-this is hilarious and very rampant. If one wants a hyper view of such "scientific" work one should read the nazi archaeology work from around the world prior to WW2.
I don't mind you agreeing as long as we are clear we disagree. All are in adam and all in christ is true. The whole world is maintained by the christ, all are drawn to christ but not all are of the elect (just as all do the will of god whether they know or want to or not). Christ is the actual elect and the predetermined, no person is this apart. His wife comes from him his own, just as Abraham's servant had to select a wife from abraham's kin, and exclude the other women (and of course, god selected her). Electoi, the called out ones, are the bride and many of the human race are excluded from this selection. Abstractly, this is viewed as the church, which the individual elected person is part of. The bride form the abstract general universal, and the individual is the particular of it-at the marriage, this abstract and individuals become "one flesh" with christ-those who reject the christ, the antichrists do not. This is not going to include every Tom, Dick, and Harry. All the bible is based on drawing distinctions, from the creation and these move on into eternity.
The bible presents life and god's interaction with it like a drama, and it used to be referred to, in the older theology, as god's theatre. When god loves the world, he loves its entirety as that living out drama. It is humans who think in singular terms and forget the whole drama, and attach so much importance to their little selves in isolation. Just as a person likes star wars and all the good and evil characters and deeds, and "knows" that all are required to create the drama, so life is somewhat like that. To get the bride, this whole mess has to be structured up, with all it crummy and good events, lame and good ideas, and such-it is a whole. But the bride is a particular pulled from the whole. Otherwise there ain't one.
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