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Man's will is dictated by the flesh and soulishness.
The will of the flesh is at enmity to God.
Joh 1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods,
neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man,
but of God."
Eph 2:3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of
our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were,
in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),
While I appreciate the fact that you answered my question, I would have preferred one that wasn't a quotation or two, but the thoughts of a person in real time.
While I appreciate the fact that you answered my question, I would have preferred one that wasn't a quotation or two, but the thoughts of a person in real time.
Thanks anyway.
Hi Pamela,
I see it similarly to Eusebius. When talking about 'free will' it is useful to understand what a 'free will' would really mean. Many people assume 'free will' means 'making a choice'. However the definition cannot be that simple because cats, mosquitoes, and even computers make choices, but no one claims they have a free will.
free: without restriction, without influence
will: intent to consciously act/will/choose/think etc.
So if we truly had a 'free will' we would be able to do anything without restriction or influence. Of course a truly 'free' will does not exist because we are all restricted in many ways: physically, emotionally, morally, by circumstances, by environment, by our own desires, etc.
When it comes right down to it we have a will that is caused to do things by influence and circumstances and desires.
The below was just in reply to my brother's objection due to God's justice
Dear ______, concerning God's justice and the saving of humanity, God's Son completely fulfilled God's justice when He gave Himself a ransom for all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6). Therefore it is God's justice which states all mankind have been ransomed. His justice demands He save all who have been ransomed.
It is God's justice which sent Christ to the cross to die for the sins of all mankind. God's Son completely fulfilled God justice when He died for all mankind. It is God's justice which states all mankind have been died for. His justice demands they must be saved. Not all saved at the same time of course but saved nonetheless.
You were not saved by any works you did. You did not merit salvation except alone due to what Christ did for you and all mankind. If not for God choosing you before the disruption of the world to be believing you would not believe and could not. He chose you to be in His corporation (church) for the next two ages to do His work of "heading up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Whom our lot was cast also (see Eph.1:9,10). Not all mankind were chosen for that job. The rest must await the end of the ages when death is abolished.
It is not that they merit a "Hell" any more than you merrit a "Heaven." God justice demands a just verdict. That justice was met in the death of His Son when all mankind were put to death in Him on the cross.
God's justice does not allow mankind to skirt His coming judgments. They must all be corrected. Yes, Christ died for their sins but He did not die to keep mankind from needful, loving correction. It is when one ascribes "eternity" to the correction that it becomes abhorrent to both His love and justice. No one merits eternal torment by any stretch of the imagination especially after Christ ransomed them and died for their sins. God's justice does not allow a punishment greater than the act committed. Even Jesus said "they shall not get out till they have paid all they owe." He did not say "they shall never get out even though they pay what they owe." Justice demands a just sentence for the crime. Is it just to send a child to life in prison without parole for stealing a piece of candy along with the mass murderer. Yet some think God's justice is right when He supposedly sends someone to a hell for a short life who lived a decent life along the mass murderers for eternity. No, Terry. Never in a million years. Even the mass murderers do not merit eternal torment. What kept them from being in God's corporation? God's choice before the disruption.
God's justice demands that the same all mankind that got condemned due to what Adam did is the same all mankind that will get their lives justified due to what Christ did. Fair is fair, Terry. If all mankind can be MADE sinners due to what one man (Adam) did, then according to God's justice, all mankind, the same all mankind can be MADE righteous due to what one Man (Christ) did (see Romans 5:18,19).
You believe God is just to make all mankind sinners due to what Adam did, but you think God would be unjust to make the same all mankind righteous due to what a greater than Adam did!
I hear the complainers in the vineyard . . . Christ called some in the morning, some in the afternoon, some an hour before the end of the day. When it came time to pay for their work the ones who worked all day in the heat thought it was unfair of Christ to pay the same for those who only worked an hour. Yet His reply was: Mat 20:15 "Is it not allowed me to do what I want with that which is mine? Or is your eye wicked, seeing that I am good?'"
Christ paid for all mankind's sins, those who worked their whole lives as sinners in the heat of the day and those who worked but a short hour as sinners.
I see it similarly to Eusebius. When talking about 'free will' it is useful to understand what a 'free will' would really mean. Many people assume 'free will' means 'making a choice'. However the definition cannot be that simple because cats, mosquitoes, and even computers make choices, but no one claims they have a free will.
free: without restriction, without influence
will: intent to consciously act/will/choose/think etc.
So if we truly had a 'free will' we would be able to do anything without restriction or influence. Of course a truly 'free' will does not exist because we are all restricted in many ways: physically, emotionally, morally, by circumstances, by environment, by our own desires, etc.
When it comes right down to it we have a will that is caused to do things by influence and circumstances and desires.
Hope that helps...
Thats right ... And the scriptures are clear that every time we do anything that pleases god, it is because he is working in us to do it.
Quote:
"It is God who works within you both the willing and the doing of his good pleasure."
And when we read that ...
Quote:
"and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder."
We understand that it is in fact God who gives us faith to repent and believe, as it is also clearly written.
Quote:
"for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift"
And again ...
Quote:
"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you."
We see that Both grace and Faith are equal parts of the gift of salvation, both of which are given by God. And the same is with repentance ...
Quote:
"God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel."
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth"
It is clearly born out in the scriptures that humanity is in bondage to sin and death, and cannot by virtue of their own moral agency choose to repent and believe and have faith in the grace of God. As it is written,
Quote:
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
Yet traditional orthodox fundamentalist Christianity at large teaches the opposite.
Why do most Christians reject what the scriptures clearly teach about these things? Because of pride and arrogance and self righteousness, which causes them to believe that they are in control of their own destinies, even though the scriptures teach the opposite ...
Quote:
"From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth."
"I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."
Hello,
I was thinking more about what you wrote concerning Caleb and Joshua and David. They are the rare examples, of Israelites under the law, of what happens when God, by His Spirit, changes a person.
Tom's premise is that all mankind have a choice to make: Heaven or Hell.
First of all, there are no scriptures which states "man has a choice to make: Heaven or Hell."
However, it would be Scriptural to state that mankind is preached the gospel of Christ's death for them: Do they believe?
If they believe, how so?
My premise and the premise of most Calvinists is: Man cannot make that choice without God's intervention.
"Those in flesh cannot please God." "Those in flesh are not able to do the law." Caleb and Joshua and the second generation out of Egypt went into the promised land due to God's mercy, not due to pleasing God. Remember Joshua after asking them to choose this day who they would serve and they said they would serve God. Then Joshua said they could not serve God. They were fleshly. Joshua and Caleb were spiritual (guided by God's Spirit and graced to be obedient by His Spirit).
Though David was one of God's favorites even David could not keep the law and indeed was not able. He had sex with another man's wife (Bathsheba) and murdered her husband. Neither David, Joshua nor Caleb had a choice to make i.e., Heaven or Hell. No one of the billions in the Old Testament, pre-Noah-flood and post-Noah-flood, had such a choice to make. For thousands of years, pre-Noah-flood and post-Noah-flood, God never told anyone about Hell in the Old Testament. So Tom's premise again does not hold water that every person has a choice to make, Heaven or Hell.
Even if all mankind was given a choice to believe Christ died for our sins or not, how could they choose to believe this? They are flesh and soulish and have death operating in them. Only those who do believe do so due to God's grace and His choice of them before the disruption of the world. "
1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
The gospel is spiritual and must be spiritually examined and is of the spirit of God. The soulish person is not able to know it. Adam and all his progeny are soulish and flesh. So how was it you, Terry, were able to see the truth of Christ dying for all your sins and making you fully acceptable to God? It was only because God overwhelmed you with His grace and He opened your eyes and heart to perceive and believe. Otherwise you could not.
So who is responsible for who believes? Ah, there's the rub. Some theologians want to be God's PR man and shield God from responsibility. Some of them want it all to fall on the shoulders of mankind. That is the problem with eternal torment. If it is true and if God is responsible for who believes then God is responsible for who does not believe and therefore God would be responsible for sending someone to eternal torment even though they could not believe. This is not consistent with a God of love.
I thank God you do believe! It doesn't help to say that God gives us just so much faith, then He steps back to see if we will believe. That is not how God saves us. The Bible never says that is how God saves us. The evangelical Universalist can believe in judgments to come and believe God is responsible for a person not believing.
Anyway, Gehenna (mistranslated "Hell" in some Bibles) in the New Testament is not for those who refuse to believe Christ died for them. But it does last for the millennium.
Hades (in which both the rich man and Lazarus went when they died) is also not for those who refuse to believe Christ died for them. It is never said to be eternal. In fact, those interred therein are let out, judged at the great white throne for their *acts* and cast into the lake of fire which is death.
The lake of fire is not due to those who refuse to believe Christ died for them. But it does last for the ages of the ages. Then when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) all held by death will be subjected to Christ then God will be All in all. This latter view is consistent with a God Who is love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Nice post Eusebius, many good points.
Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ notonlytobelieve in him, but also to suffer for him,
Here we have proof from scripture that what you say above is accurate (there are many other scriptures that affirm this as well). God is the one who grants belief.
But this is really the heart of the matter. How do we believe anything? I'm talking about a true sincere belief here. Its like some mysterious force people think they can conjure up from themselves, but they really can't.
I might be standing outside on a beautiful sunny day and declare "I believe the sky is red with pink polka-dots". Others around me would protest saying the sky is obviously blue. Now I might be delusional or insane, but there is no way I can actually will myself to truly sincerely believe that the sky is red with pink polka-dots. Because it simply isn't that way.
What if I said: "there is a great flying spaghetti monster who lives in the sky and loves you so much, all you have to do is believe in him and you will receive his blessings. But if you don't believe in him, you when you die you will spend eternity boiling in a giant pot of spaghetti sauce. Please I beg of you come believe in him, its wonderful!"
If I really begged and pleaded with you, could you really believe that story? Most people would find it preposterous. But the problem is, is that's how atheists view Christianity. The other problem is many people 'believe' (not out of sincerity, but out of fear), because they don't want to risk ending up in the boiling pot of spaghetti sauce.
You cannot make someone truly sincerely believe something. You can't even make yourself 'choose' to sincerely believe something. Your beliefs are simply part of what you are. It is part of your nature, and it is only if your nature changes will your beliefs change. If you disagree with me, try this test: choose to believe something you know is false. You will not be able to do it.
God is the one who is in control here, yet again.
Yes, nice post Eusebius, and you too Legoman. I got nothing to add, just thought these were worth repeating.
God is fully responsible for who is saved and who is not.
If eternal torment is true then God created billions of humans for tthe sole purpose of eternally tormenting them.
Jesus said: "Mat 11:25 At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors.."
And Jesus colluded with the Father by speaking to the people in parables so they would not see the truth and remain in blindless.
Jesus also said no one can come to Me unless the Father draw him.
So God is responsible for salvation.
Eternal torture turns God into the most horrible ogre far more horrible than the gods of the heathen.
Proper chastening though as understood by the evangelical Universalist puts God, the loving Father, in His proper light. After the second death is abolished all those people come forth, are subjected to Christ and then God is All in all.
God is fully responsible for who is saved and who is not.
If eternal torment is true then God created billions of humans for tthe sole purpose of eternally tormenting them.
Jesus said: "Mat 11:25 At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors.."
And Jesus colluded with the Father by speaking to the people in parables so they would not see the truth and remain in blindless.
Jesus also said no one can come to Me unless the Father draw him.
So God is responsible for salvation.
Eternal torture turns God into the most horrible ogre far more horrible than the gods of the heathen.
Proper chastening though as understood by the evangelical Universalist puts God, the loving Father, in His proper light. After the second death is abolished all those people come forth, are subjected to Christ and then God is All in all.
Which God is your God?
Eusebius, i am convinced the reason we believe God would cast billions into eternal torment is because we do not believe we and others are any value to God.The truth(Jesus Christ)said we are.God did not create us worthless, we are only worthless in our own eyes, when we see ourselves through the eyes of our Heavenly Father and our neighbor through the eyes of our Heavenly Father we see our true value and worth to God.
Hands up anyone who who threw away anything valuable to them ? Yea i thought not.
I threw away my photographs of when I was a kid and my gold class ring after I read that anyone looking back was not fit for the kingdom of God.
I missapplied that verse. My bad.
Where did you throw the gold ring ? If you threw it in a field go and buy the field
"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy(My son that was lost is found) went and sold all he had and bought that field.
We are the treasure of God.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
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