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I don't think I would describe Mike's post as excellent, it is based on assumption and inaccuracy.
If there really were an 'eternal' age - then that would be an age that had no end and had no beginning.
from dictionary.com eternal: without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing
In that sense the only truly eternal thing is God.
However we sometimes use 'eternal' in a metaphorical sense meaning lasting forever or seeming to last forever.
There is a common error of understanding that there are only two ages: this age and the age to come - therefore the assumption is made that the next age is endless.
However the bible speaks of past ages, and future ages to come - yes, ages plural. There are many more than two ages. The bible also speaks of a time of the "consummation of the ages" - when all the ages will have finished. God is working out His plan of salvation in successive ages - probably more than we know. And ultimately the bible speaks of a time when God will be all in all.
I suggest that you consult with a Jewish Rabbi about the matter and he can tell you about how the Jews in Biblical times understood the issue. It is highly doubtful if you even bothered to go into the links that I provided from which I got the information.
In the original post, I explained that within this age, Judaism recognizes ages within this age.
In Judaism this concept is referred to as 'Olam Hazeh' - This world; this present age, 6000 years from Adam to the coming of the Messiah, and divided into three Periods. 1] Age of Tohu - desolation; 2] Age of Torah - instruction; 3] Age of Messiah - Messianic Era.
The New Testament recogizes that there are multiple ages. It also uses the phrase 'this age and the age to come.' In this sense it is distinquishing between time and the eternal future.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.
No, my statement is not inaccurate.
Yes it was. You said universalists say aionios cannot refer to something that is eternal.
And I (being what you would label a 'universalist') just told you that aionios can refer to something that is eternal.
Therefore your statement was inaccurate. I'm not just trying to be stubborn here. I'm trying to show the reader that you don't understand and/or are misrepresenting the belief you are arguing against.
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Go back to post #1 and read what I said about Chayei Sha'ah and Chayim Olam as they relate to Olam Hazeh and Haolam Ha-ba. This is how the Jews in Biblical times understood life as it relates to Olam. And Aionios is the equivalent of Olam.
Here. I have copied it below.
In our English translations of the Bible 'Aionios' is used with regard to 'an age', 'the world', and 'eternity'. Each of these is correct. Basically, the Bible recognizes the existence of both a temporal age (temporary) and the eternal age. This age and the age to come.
But you are assuming here that the particular English bible translation you used is correct, where other bibles do not translate it that way. That is why we have these debates. You are effectively saying: "it means eternal because it says eternal".... but then I say "ah, excuse me, hate to interrupt, but these other bibles don't say it means eternal... "
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In Judaism this concept is referred to as 'Olam Hazeh' - This world; this present age, 6000 years from Adam to the coming of the Messiah, and divided into three Periods. 1] Age of Tohu - desolation; 2] Age of Torah - instruction; 3] Age of Messiah - Messianic Era.
Life within this age - this world is known as Chayei Sha'ah - Fleeting life; life in this world [Olam Hazeh].
'Olam Hazeh' is in contrast to 'Haolam Ha-ba'- 'The world to come' or 'the after life.' The phrase 'Chayim Olam' refers to eternal life; life in the world to come - Haolam Ha-ba.
That's very interesting, but no one here is denying that the afterlife is endless. What is up for debate is what 'aionios' means and 'olam' means. Particularly I would suspect you would want to argue that 'aionios' must mean 'endless' in verses like Matt 25:46, yet you offer no proof of that, and you yourself have already admitted that 'aionios' doesn't have to refer to something eternal.
It is very easy to show that olam does not mean eternal. The very first instance in the bible (that I found) of the use of olam is in Genesis 9:16 where it speaks of an 'everlasting covenant', yet we know that covenant was not everlasting, as it was replaced with a new covenant. So we see 'everlasting' does not really mean literally endless.
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Aionios refers to an age. There are temporal ages and there is an eternal age. When the New Testament uses the term, the age to come, it is referring to the eternal age - eternity future.
The believer has eternal life the moment he believes in Christ as Savior. That eternal life is forever and as a result of having an eternal relationship with God, the believer who is growing spiritually comes to know God better and better and will be the recipient of greater grace blessings in time (James 4:6).
Other than the point of an 'eternal age', I don't really disagree with what you are saying here. Aionios life begins now when you come to know Christ - that is what aionios life is: knowing Christ.
There are multiple successive ages in which God is working out His plan. The culmination of which will result in all enemies being defeated and God being all in all. That is scriptural truth.
I suggest that you consult with a Jewish Rabbi about the matter and he can tell you about how the Jews in Biblical times understood the issue. It is highly doubtful if you even bothered to go into the links that I provided from which I got the information.
In the original post, I explained that within this age, Judaism recognized ages within this age.
In Judaism this concept is referred to as 'Olam Hazeh' - This world; this present age, 6000 years from Adam to the coming of the Messiah, and divided into three Periods. 1] Age of Tohu - desolation; 2] Age of Torah - instruction; 3] Age of Messiah - Messianic Era.
I did look at the links briefly - but you yourself said there are divergent beliefs - some believe in a punishment for 12 months, some believe longer. The links are a bit all over the place talking about immortal soul, non-immortal soul, reincarnation, etc. So what does that prove? People have different beliefs.
The one link focused on the idea that 'aionios life' is knowing God. I agree with that - that is what John 17:3 says.
And again, no one is arguing that we will not be with God forever or that the afterlife ends at some point.
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The New Testament recogizes that there are multiple ages. It also uses the phrase 'this age and the age to come.' In this sense it is distinquishing between time and eternity.
This is a fallacy and an assumption. If I say that I will be working this year and the year after, does that mean there are no more years to come beyond that?
Yes it was. You said universalists say aionios cannot refer to something that is eternal.
And I (being what you would label a 'universalist') just told you that aionios can refer to something that is eternal.
Therefore your statement was inaccurate. I'm not just trying to be stubborn here. I'm trying to show the reader that you don't understand and/or are misrepresenting the belief you are arguing against.
Here is my original statement. 'To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.'
You know full well that most universalists fight tooth and nail to deny that the word aionios is used with reference to that which is eternal.
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But you are assuming here that the particular English bible translation you used is correct, where other bibles do not translate it that way. That is why we have these debates. You are effectively saying: "it means eternal because it says eternal".... but then I say "ah, excuse me, hate to interrupt, but these other bibles don't say it means eternal... "
Translations are not the issue. I have presented the issue from the perspective of Judaism and how the Jews of Biblical times understood the matter. Olam Ha-zeh and Haolam Ha-ba.
But just for the record, I mainly use the NASB which is one of the best translations there is.
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That's very interesting, but no one here is denying that the afterlife is endless. What is up for debate is what 'aionios' means and 'olam' means. Particularly I would suspect you would want to argue that 'aionios' must mean 'endless' in verses like Matt 25:46, yet you offer no proof of that, and you yourself have already admitted that 'aionios' doesn't have to refer to something eternal.
It is very easy to show that olam does not mean eternal. The very first instance in the bible (that I found) of the use of olam is in Genesis 9:16 where it speaks of an 'everlasting covenant', yet we know that covenant was not everlasting, as it was replaced with a new covenant. So we see 'everlasting' does not really mean literally endless.
And again, I suggest that you consult with a Jewish Rabbi and let him tell you about the meaning of Haolam Ha-ba -The world to come.
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Other than the point of an 'eternal age', I don't really disagree with what you are saying here. Aionios life begins now when you come to know Christ - that is what aionios life is: knowing Christ.
There are multiple successive ages in which God is working out His plan. The culmination of which will result in all enemies being defeated and God being all in all. That is scriptural truth.
I have already stated that the New Testament recognizes multiple ages and yet it also refers to this age and the age to come. The age to come is with reference to the eternal age.
I do not expect most Universalists to be willing to face up to the truth of the matter.
I have no intention of going back and forth on the matter. It is indeed your intention to argue and twist things in support of Universalism.
What I have done is to present how the Jews of Biblical times understood the meaning of 'Olam', and 'Aionios.'
Hi, from what I have read, the phrase "Olam Haba" is not found in the Hebrew Bible and most of the Jewish views of the afterlife developed post Biblical times. The Hebrew Bible gives a few glimpses into what happens after death, however,"olam" refers to that which is hidden. Jewish scholars, teachers, ect. may have added their beliefs and we know that the beliefs on the subject are varied. For example, there are some who speak of Olam haba as the Messianic Age, and some say that it includes the afterlife which they refer to as "eternity". There are those who speak of a time after the Olam haba.
Some notes:
Rabbi Bar Nachman: "The future world (the Olam habba) will have its Gehenna, but the last times will have it no more."
Most Jewish ideas about the afterlife developed in post-biblical times.
"The Bible itself has very few references to life after death. Sheol, the bowels of the earth, is portrayed as the place of the dead, but in most instances Sheol seems to be more a metaphor for oblivion than an actual place where the dead "live" and retain consciousness.
The notion of resurrection appears in two late biblical sources, Daniel 12 and Isaiah 25-26.
Daniel 12:2--"Many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, others to reproaches, to everlasting abhorrence"--implies that resurrection will be followed by a day of judgment. Those judged favorably will live forever and those judged to be wicked will be punished.
Later Jewish tradition, however, is not clear about exactly who will be resurrected, when it will happen, and what will take place.
Some sources imply that the resurrection of the dead will occur during the messianic era. Others indicate that resurrection will follow the messianic era. Similarly, according to some, only the righteous will be resurrected, while according to others, everyone will be resurrected and--as implied in Daniel--a day of judgment will follow."
The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html.
The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in a philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam … in contexts where it is traditionally translated ‘forever,’ means, in itself, no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period.’ … In the NewTestament, aion is used as the equivalent of olam.” – Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible.
“The Old Testament and the New Testament are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The Old Testament has not developed a special term for ‘eternity.’ The word aion originally meant ‘vital force,’ ‘life;’ then ‘age,’ ‘lifetime.’ It is, however also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time …” – The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643).
“There is no word either in the Old Testament Hebrew or in the New Testament Greekto express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting-nonetheless‘eternal’ is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of‘endlessly existing,’ and thus to be practically a synonym for ‘everlasting.’ But this is notan adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the nounaion from which it comes.” – Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (p. 370).
Some Jewish theologians even believe in the eventual restoration of all people to God!
Properly Understanding the Greek word 'Aionios' and the Hebrew word 'Olam'.
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This post is a bit lengthy, but not too much, and it is very important. I ask those who read this to do so very carefully, so that you can refute the Universalists claim that the words 'Olam' and 'Aionios' do not mean 'eternal.'
In their attempts to refute the clear teaching of the Bible that those who die having never believed in Christ for salvation will be eternally separated from God, Universalists make every effort to deny that the Hebrew word 'Olam' and the Greek word 'Aionios' mean 'eternal'. If 'Olam' and 'Aionios' mean eternal then their argument against eternal punishment is weakened.
RESPONSE:
It is a waste of time to make such an argument unless you can first prove the two assertions that you have made to begin with.
First, that the Bible is anything other than a man-authored book. (Or is this one of those “you just have to believe…” assertions without evidence)?
Second, that your claim that “In their attempts to refute the clear teaching of the Bible that those who die having never believed in Christ for salvation will be eternally separated from God,” is a true statement.
Properly Understanding the Greek word 'Aionios' and the Hebrew word 'Olam'.
[CENTER][CENTER][/CENTER][/CENTER]
This post is a bit lengthy, but not too much, and it is very important. I ask those who read this to do so very carefully, so that you can refute the Universalists claim that the words 'Olam' and 'Aionios' do not mean 'eternal.'
In their attempts to refute the clear teaching of the Bible that those who die having never believed in Christ for salvation will be eternally separated from God, Universalists make every effort to deny that the Hebrew word 'Olam' and the Greek word 'Aionios' mean 'eternal'. If 'Olam' and 'Aionios' mean eternal then their argument against eternal punishment is weakened.
RESPONSE:
It is a waste of time to make such an argument unless you can first prove the two assertions that you have made to begin with.
First, that the Bible is anything other than a man-authored book. (Or is this one of those “you just have to believe…” assertions without evidence)?
Second, that your claim that “In their attempts to refute the clear teaching of the Bible that those who die having never believed in Christ for salvation will be eternally separated from God,” is a true statement.
Otherwise, you’re just spinning your wheels.
Mike assumes those things to be true, as do others.
But even if you don't believe in anything, it is still worth it from a scholar/historic point of view to understand what the bible actually says. One can say/debate 'the bible says this or that' without considering if the bible is actually true or not. The default in this forum is that the bible is true, but regardless, given that, your statement is out of scope.
Mike assumes those things to be true, as do others.
But even if you don't believe in anything, it is still worth it from a scholar/historic point of view to understand what the bible actually says. One can say/debate 'the bible says this or that' without considering if the bible is actually true or not. The default in this forum is that the bible is true, but regardless, given that, your statement is out of scope.
RESPONSE:
But I do believe in something, but not the divine inspiration of the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, Veda, etc. etc. They're all inspirational, but not necessarily factual.
>>The default in this forum is that the bible is true,<<
Yes. But unless that be established, what an incredibe waste of time.
I agree that understanding what the bible says is an interesting academic exercise. So is understanding what Harry Potter actually says.
Here is my original statement. 'To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.'
You know full well that most universalists fight tooth and nail to deny that the word aionios is used with reference to that which is eternal.
Mike, it is plain to see to anyone who has open eyes and common reasoning faculties that olam CANNOT mean eternal/everlasting in some cases.
Ex 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting [olam] priesthood throughout their generations.
This CANNOT mean a literally unending eternal/everlasting priesthood, because it didn't last.
ShanaBrown has often posted a numerous list of scriptures that show something is 'everlasting' UNTIL something else happens. 'Everlasting' as we commonly understand it to mean 'unending/forever' is simply not the right meaning in these cases because scripture tells us these things end and therefore are not literally endless.
That is the truth of the matter whether anyone cares to acknowledge it or not.
Now... since olam was translated with the word 'everlasting' in cases where it clearly cannot mean that, it draws into question ALL cases where olam/aionios were translated to mean everlasting. And honest scholarship should cause us to conclude that we should not impose a certain meaning where it is not warranted.
Yes. But unless that be established, what an incredibe waste of time.
But now you are just trolling, considering the forum you are in...
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