U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 03-28-2011, 05:03 PM
 
21,800 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649

Advertisements

This post is a bit lengthy, but not too much, and it is very important. I ask those who read this to do so very carefully, so that you can refute the Universalists claim that the words 'Olam' and 'Aionios' do not mean 'eternal.'

In their attempts to refute the clear teaching of the Bible that those who die having never believed in Christ for salvation will be eternally separated from God, Universalists make every effort to deny that the Hebrew word 'Olam' and the Greek word 'Aionios' mean 'eternal'. If 'Olam' and 'Aionios' mean eternal then their argument against eternal punishment is weakened.


The Greek word 'Aionios' is equivalent to the Hebrew word 'Olam.' Therefore, to understand the concept of 'Aionios' it is necessary to understand the use of 'Olam' in Jewish thought.

In researching this, I read that in Judaism there is no dogmatism. There are differing beliefs. What I post below with regard to Judaism is from a few different sources which I will list.

In our English translations of the Bible 'Aionios' is used with regard to 'an age', 'the world', and 'eternity'. Each of these is correct. Basically, the Bible recognizes the existence of both a temporal age (temporary) and the eternal age. This age and the age to come.

In Judaism this concept is referred to as 'Olam Hazeh' - This world; this present age, 6000 years from Adam to the coming of the Messiah, and divided into three Periods. 1] Age of Tohu - desolation; 2] Age of Torah - instruction; 3] Age of Messiah - Messianic Era.

Life within this age - this world is known as Chayei Sha'ah - Fleeting life; life in this world [Olam Hazeh].

'Olam Hazeh' is in contrast to 'Haolam Ha-ba'- 'The world to come' or 'the after life.' The phrase 'Chayim Olam' refers to eternal life; life in the world to come - Haolam Ha-ba.


There are two aspects to 'Haolam Ha-ba'.

1] The world of souls - 'Sheol.' Concurrent with 'Olam Hazeh', this is a disembodied state where the departed go after death in preparation for resurrection.

2] The world of resurrection - 'Olam Ha-Techiah.' The righteous go to 'Gan Eden' while the unrighteous go to 'Gehinnom.' In Judaism, Gehinnom is a temporary place where the unrighteous go for a period of up to 12 months where they undergo purification after which they are them allowed into 'Gan Eden,' However, some teach that after 12 months the wicked are then either annihilated or continue to be punished.


The above should make it clear that in Judaism the word 'Olam' refers to this world - a temporary age, and to the world to come - the eternal age.

Rabbi A. Leib Scheinbawm of the Hebrew Academy of Cleveland, in an article titled 'PARSHAS ACHREI MOS,' made the following comment. 'By studying Torah in this world, we are preparing ourselves for chayei olam, eternal life in Olam Habba.' Hebrew Academy Parsha Sheet [About the 9th paragraph from top.]

The Encyclopedia Britannica makes the following entry on Olam Ha-ba.

ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 bc–ad 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.

Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.”
olam ha-ba (Judaism) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

I also got information from the following sites:

Chayei Olam - the Wonder of Eternal Life

Eternal Life - Chayei Olam

Jewish afterlife beliefs

Jewish Beliefs on the Afterlife - ReligionFacts

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Now, all of the above is for the purpose of showing both that the Hebrew word 'Olam' does in fact refer to eternity, and that in Jewish thought, there is the concept of an 'ETERNAL AGE.' Obviously the Jewish belief that the sentence of the wicked to Gehenna is temporary is not Biblical. I want to direct your attention to the entry from The Encyclopedia Britannica shown above regarding the fact that the latter interpretation of Haolam Ha-ba referring to the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets.


If the Universalist wants to deny that 'Olam' refers to an eternal age - that 'Olam' doesn't and can't mean 'eternal,' he must do so in the face of the beliefs of Judaism and how the Jew in Biblical times used the word 'Olam.'

What about the Greek word 'Aionios?' It is the equivalent of 'Olam.'

The New Testament distinquishes between the temporal (temporary) and the eternal.

2 Cor 4:17 'For momentary light affliction, is producing for us an eternal [aiōnion] weight of glory far above all comparison; 18] while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal [proskaira], but the things which are not seen are eternal [aiōnia].


In view of the Jewish concept of 'Olam Hazeh' and 'Haolam Ha-Ba', how do you think that the Jew would understand this passage?

The Old Testament Jew believed that man lives his life in two ages - periods - worlds. There is the temporal here and now [Olam Hazeh] which is finite, and there is the afterlife - the world to come - Haolam Ha-ba which takes in man's existence after death. Therefore, this life, this world, this age was to the Jew, temporary; while the life, the world, the age to come is eternal.

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus is speaking to Jewish Pharisees about the unforgiveable sin. ''And whoever shall speak against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.'' The Pharisees were attributing the miracles that Jesus was doing to Satan rather then to the Holy Spirit. This was tantamount to unbelief. As long as a person is in unbelief he cannot be forgiven. If he should die never having believed in Christ the sin can never be forgiven, either in this age - 'Olam Hazeh', or in the age to come - the world to come - 'Haolam Ha-Ba.' - the eternal age.


I now direct your attention to this excerpt:
The sixth objection universalists raise, like onto the fifth objection, is that the Greek word that is translated into eternal is aionion. It comes from the Greek root aion meaning "age" which while true is not a reasonable objection because, while technically the word does mean "age," linguistically with the intent to convey the meaning the word "age" had to a Hebrew of the biblical period it should be understood as to mean eternity to a contemporary audience.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

The last thing that I want to direct the readers attention to is an excerpt concerning something written by a Greek Philosopher name Philo concerning the use of the word Aionion in writing about eternity;

126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios.
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

The argument of the Universalist that neither 'Olam' or 'Aionios' refers to eternity is without any merit whatsoever, as both words make reference to AN ETERNAL AGE.

Both the Jews and the Greek Philosophers employed the use of the word 'aionios' to refer to eternity. Those who deny this do so to protect an agenda.

To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-28-2011 at 05:32 PM..
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-28-2011, 10:41 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,137,527 times
Reputation: 1328
Hi Mike, I believe that what you are describing as the "Eternal Age" will end when Jesus delivers the kingdom over to the Father so that God may be all in all, as Paul reveals in 1 Corinthians 15. Believers will though be immortal, having been raised to never die again. And when all have been made subject to Christ, I believe that all will be restored to God. The phrase that is termed "Eternal Age" in your post is translated as "the world to come" or "the age to come" from what I read. An age has a beginning and an end. I believe that what Paul describes as being temporal refers to a short time or period in contrast to an aionion weight of glory, that belonging to and lasting through the ages of time. The opposite of something that is a short period of time can also be said to be a long period of time as well as something that is said to be eternal. The literal meaning of "olam" is "that which is hidden or unknown" . Other words refer to that which is incorruptible and/or immortal, meaning that "eternal" life is promised to us.


1 Cor. 15: 51-54, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (aphthartoi,) and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal must put on immortality (athanasian). So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (athanasian,) then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."


1 Cor. 15:42, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption (aphtharsia).

2 Tim i:10, "Who brought life and immortality (aphtharsian) to light, through the gospel." 1 Tim. vi:16, "Who only hath immortality (athanasian)."

I believe that aionion life is life that believers have in knowing Jesus the Son and the Father and we have this life now and in the age to come. We will become immortal when we are raised from the dead. One day, the ages will end, and all will be restored to the Father. He will then be all in all.

Romans 8: "18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope (epis-expectation) 21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.





More references for further reading for anyone who is interested:


http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/allin.htm

http://www.gtft.org/Library/hanson/Aion-Aionios.htm (broken link)

http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/vincent.htm (broken link)

Universalism...First 500 Years

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 03-28-2011 at 11:39 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,757,671 times
Reputation: 1590
A few more references on the topic:

Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations


AIN -- AINIOS
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 01:52 AM
 
21,800 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi Mike, I believe that what you are describing as the "Eternal Age" will end when Jesus delivers the kingdom over to the Father so that God may be all in all, as Paul reveals in 1 Corinthians 15. Believers will though be immortal, having been raised to never die again. And when all have been made subject to Christ, I believe that all will be restored to God. The phrase that is termed "Eternal Age" in your post is translated as "the world to come" or "the age to come" from what I read. An age has a beginning and an end. I believe that what Paul describes as being temporal refers to a short time or period in contrast to an aionion weight of glory, that belonging to and lasting through the ages of time. The opposite of something that is a short period of time can also be said to be a long period of time as well as something that is said to be eternal. The literal meaning of "olam" is "that which is hidden or unknown" . Other words refer to that which is incorruptible and/or immortal, meaning that "eternal" life is promised to us.


1 Cor. 15: 51-54, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (aphthartoi,) and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal must put on immortality (athanasian). So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (athanasian,) then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."


1 Cor. 15:42, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption (aphtharsia).

2 Tim i:10, "Who brought life and immortality (aphtharsian) to light, through the gospel." 1 Tim. vi:16, "Who only hath immortality (athanasian)."

I believe that aionion life is life that believers have in knowing Jesus the Son and the Father and we have this life now and in the age to come. We will become immortal when we are raised from the dead. One day, the ages will end, and all will be restored to the Father. He will then be all in all.

Romans 8: "18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope (epis-expectation) 21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.





More references for further reading for anyone who is interested:


http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/allin.htm

http://www.gtft.org/Library/hanson/Aion-Aionios.htm (broken link)

Marvin Vincent on "Eternal Destruction" (http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/vincent.htm - broken link)

Universalism...First 500 Years

God bless.
Go back and read very, very carefully what I wrote, and pay attention to the fact that Haolam Ha-Ba - the world to come refers not only to the afterlife-the world after death, which is eternal, and but it also has reference to the world AFTER the Messianic AGE. That was made extremely clear. There is no escaping the fact that the Bible speaks of the eternal age.

The Encyclopedia Britannica makes the following entry on Olam Ha-ba.

ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 bc–ad 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.

Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.” [emphasis mine]

olam ha-ba (Judaism) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Aionios means eternal bacause the Bible speaks of an eternal age.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-29-2011 at 02:22 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 07:03 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,612,233 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.
Your statement here is not accurate Mike.
'aionios' can refer to things that are eternal, but the word itself does not necessarily imply "eternalness" or "not eternalness".

This is what scripture defines aionios life as:

NIV:
John 17:3 Now this is eternal [aionios] life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

CLV:
John 17:3 Now it is eonian [aionios] life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.

That is what aionios life is: knowing God. Notice it doesn't say anything about endlessness. This may be implied, but it is not specified. However it is specified elsewhere through a different word: we will also be given immortality.



Lets take another adjective in the following sentence as an example to understand how aionios:
The great mountains were made by our great God.

Does the word "great" mean "eternal" simply because it is used to describe God? No of course not. Are the mountains "great" in the same way that God is "great"? Again, no of course not. In the same way we should not force a meaning into aionios that is not there. Unfortunately that is what has happened in translating 'aionios' as literally 'eternal', which literally would mean 'without end AND without beginning', which makes the adjective meaningless in many cases.

It is possible the translators meant 'eternal' in a more figurative sense, referring to something that we cannot see the end of. I will give you that. Something like when we say: "it took me forever to get home yesterday". At the time it seemed like eternity - but it was not of course literal eternity.


The simplest way I can define 'aionios' is 'something pertaining or relating to aion(s) [ages]'. To say that God pertains to aions in no way takes away from his eternal nature, it is simply saying He is the God of the ages, the rock of the ages, the creator of the ages, and is involved in the ages. He transcends the ages, and He will last beyond the ages, but He still pertains to the ages.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 07:14 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,612,233 times
Reputation: 688
Again, consider Matt 25:46, which is often used to "prove" eternal punishment.

NIV:
Matt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

CLV:
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

The objector will say: if the 'life' is aionios and the 'punishment' is aionios, then they must be the same length. But the mistake is assuming 'aionios' is referring to the same duration or even implying duration at all.

In the same way:
The great mountains were made by our great God.

Here we have the same adjective 'great' used in the same sentence, yet it has a different sense of scale in each case. It is the same way in Matt 25:46. It is an interesting property that the noun itself (ie. 'God' or 'mountains') can modify the sense of the adjective (in this case 'great'). Another example. If I say:
This is a big fish in a big ocean...

Is the adjective 'big' describing the same size in the case of the 'fish' and the 'ocean'? Should we assume the fish is the same size as the ocean? No it is plain to see the noun changed what scale 'big' was referencing. Yet that is what the objector would do with Matt 25:46.

Remember that the bible itself simply defines 'aionios life' as knowing God. (John 17:3)Given this, Matt 25:46 equally has the meaning of:
And these shall be coming away into the aionios correction, but the righteous will know God.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 07:35 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,259,350 times
Reputation: 17788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This post is a bit lengthy, but not too much, and it is very important. I ask those who read this to do so very carefully, so that you can refute the Universalists claim that the words 'Olam' and 'Aionios' do not mean 'eternal.'

In their attempts to refute the clear teaching of the Bible that those who die having never believed in Christ for salvation will be eternally separated from God, Universalists make every effort to deny that the Hebrew word 'Olam' and the Greek word 'Aionios' mean 'eternal'. If 'Olam' and 'Aionios' mean eternal then their argument against eternal punishment is weakened.


The Greek word 'Aionios' is equivalent to the Hebrew word 'Olam.' Therefore, to understand the concept of 'Aionios' it is necessary to understand the use of 'Olam' in Jewish thought.

In researching this, I read that in Judaism there is no dogmatism. There are differing beliefs. What I post below with regard to Judaism is from a few different sources which I will list.

In our English translations of the Bible 'Aionios' is used with regard to 'an age', 'the world', and 'eternity'. Each of these is correct. Basically, the Bible recognizes the existence of both a temporal age (temporary) and the eternal age. This age and the age to come.

In Judaism this concept is referred to as 'Olam Hazeh' - This world; this present age, 6000 years from Adam to the coming of the Messiah, and divided into three Periods. 1] Age of Tohu - desolation; 2] Age of Torah - instruction; 3] Age of Messiah - Messianic Era.

Life within this age - this world is known as Chayei Sha'ah - Fleeting life; life in this world [Olam Hazeh].

'Olam Hazeh' is in contrast to 'Haolam Ha-ba'- 'The world to come' or 'the after life.' The phrase 'Chayim Olam' refers to eternal life; life in the world to come - Haolam Ha-ba.


There are two aspects to 'Haolam Ha-ba'.

1] The world of souls - 'Sheol.' Concurrent with 'Olam Hazeh', this is a disembodied state where the departed go after death in preparation for resurrection.

2] The world of resurrection - 'Olam Ha-Techiah.' The righteous go to 'Gan Eden' while the unrighteous go to 'Gehinnom.' In Judaism, Gehinnom is a temporary place where the unrighteous go for a period of up to 12 months where they undergo purification after which they are them allowed into 'Gan Eden,' However, some teach that after 12 months the wicked are then either annihilated or continue to be punished.


The above should make it clear that in Judaism the word 'Olam' refers to this world - a temporary age, and to the world to come - the eternal age.

Rabbi A. Leib Scheinbawm of the Hebrew Academy of Cleveland, in an article titled 'PARSHAS ACHREI MOS,' made the following comment. 'By studying Torah in this world, we are preparing ourselves for chayei olam, eternal life in Olam Habba.' Hebrew Academy Parsha Sheet [About the 9th paragraph from top.]

The Encyclopedia Britannica makes the following entry on Olam Ha-ba.

ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 bc–ad 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.

Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.”
olam ha-ba (Judaism) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

I also got information from the following sites:

Chayei Olam - the Wonder of Eternal Life

Eternal Life - Chayei Olam

Jewish afterlife beliefs

Jewish Beliefs on the Afterlife - ReligionFacts

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Now, all of the above is for the purpose of showing both that the Hebrew word 'Olam' does in fact refer to eternity, and that in Jewish thought, there is the concept of an 'ETERNAL AGE.' Obviously the Jewish belief that the sentence of the wicked to Gehenna is temporary is not Biblical. I want to direct your attention to the entry from The Encyclopedia Britannica shown above regarding the fact that the latter interpretation of Haolam Ha-ba referring to the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets.


If the Universalist wants to deny that 'Olam' refers to an eternal age - that 'Olam' doesn't and can't mean 'eternal,' he must do so in the face of the beliefs of Judaism and how the Jew in Biblical times used the word 'Olam.'

What about the Greek word 'Aionios?' It is the equivalent of 'Olam.'

The New Testament distinquishes between the temporal (temporary) and the eternal.

2 Cor 4:17 'For momentary light affliction, is producing for us an eternal [aiōnion] weight of glory far above all comparison; 18] while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal [proskaira], but the things which are not seen are eternal [aiōnia].


In view of the Jewish concept of 'Olam Hazeh' and 'Haolam Ha-Ba', how do you think that the Jew would understand this passage?

The Old Testament Jew believed that man lives his life in two ages - periods - worlds. There is the temporal here and now [Olam Hazeh] which is finite, and there is the afterlife - the world to come - Haolam Ha-ba which takes in man's existence after death. Therefore, this life, this world, this age was to the Jew, temporary; while the life, the world, the age to come is eternal.

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus is speaking to Jewish Pharisees about the unforgiveable sin. ''And whoever shall speak against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.'' The Pharisees were attributing the miracles that Jesus was doing to Satan rather then to the Holy Spirit. This was tantamount to unbelief. As long as a person is in unbelief he cannot be forgiven. If he should die never having believed in Christ the sin can never be forgiven, either in this age - 'Olam Hazeh', or in the age to come - the world to come - 'Haolam Ha-Ba.' - the eternal age.


I now direct your attention to this excerpt:
The sixth objection universalists raise, like onto the fifth objection, is that the Greek word that is translated into eternal is aionion. It comes from the Greek root aion meaning "age" which while true is not a reasonable objection because, while technically the word does mean "age," linguistically with the intent to convey the meaning the word "age" had to a Hebrew of the biblical period it should be understood as to mean eternity to a contemporary audience.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

The last thing that I want to direct the readers attention to is an excerpt concerning something written by a Greek Philosopher name Philo concerning the use of the word Aionion in writing about eternity;

126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios.
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

The argument of the Universalist that neither 'Olam' or 'Aionios' refers to eternity is without any merit whatsoever, as both words make reference to AN ETERNAL AGE.

Both the Jews and the Greek Philosophers employed the use of the word 'aionios' to refer to eternity. Those who deny this do so to protect an agenda.

To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.
Thanks, Mike ! Excellent post
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 08:18 AM
 
21,800 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To the Universalists who deny that 'aionios' refers to things eternal, but rather means age-during, you now know that there is both a temporal or temporary age of limited duration, and an ETERNAL AGE. You can no longer make the claim that none of the translators knew how to translate the words, and that they somehow all managed to mistranslate them in the same way.



Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Your statement here is not accurate Mike.
'aionios' can refer to things that are eternal, but the word itself does not necessarily imply "eternalness" or "not eternalness".

This is what scripture defines aionios life as:

NIV:
John 17:3 Now this is eternal [aionios] life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

CLV:
John 17:3 Now it is eonian [aionios] life that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.

That is what aionios life is: knowing God. Notice it doesn't say anything about endlessness. This may be implied, but it is not specified. However it is specified elsewhere through a different word: we will also be given immortality.



Lets take another adjective in the following sentence as an example to understand how aionios:
The great mountains were made by our great God.

Does the word "great" mean "eternal" simply because it is used to describe God? No of course not. Are the mountains "great" in the same way that God is "great"? Again, no of course not. In the same way we should not force a meaning into aionios that is not there. Unfortunately that is what has happened in translating 'aionios' as literally 'eternal', which literally would mean 'without end AND without beginning', which makes the adjective meaningless in many cases.

It is possible the translators meant 'eternal' in a more figurative sense, referring to something that we cannot see the end of. I will give you that. Something like when we say: "it took me forever to get home yesterday". At the time it seemed like eternity - but it was not of course literal eternity.


The simplest way I can define 'aionios' is 'something pertaining or relating to aion(s) [ages]'. To say that God pertains to aions in no way takes away from his eternal nature, it is simply saying He is the God of the ages, the rock of the ages, the creator of the ages, and is involved in the ages. He transcends the ages, and He will last beyond the ages, but He still pertains to the ages.
No, my statement is not inaccurate. ]

Go back to post #1 and read what I said about Chayei Sha'ah and Chayim Olam as they relate to Olam Hazeh and Haolam Ha-ba. This is how the Jews in Biblical times understood life as it relates to Olam. And Aionios is the equivalent of Olam.

Here. I have copied it below.

In our English translations of the Bible 'Aionios' is used with regard to 'an age', 'the world', and 'eternity'. Each of these is correct. Basically, the Bible recognizes the existence of both a temporal age (temporary) and the eternal age. This age and the age to come.

In Judaism this concept is referred to as 'Olam Hazeh' - This world; this present age, 6000 years from Adam to the coming of the Messiah, and divided into three Periods. 1] Age of Tohu - desolation; 2] Age of Torah - instruction; 3] Age of Messiah - Messianic Era.

Life within this age - this world is known as Chayei Sha'ah - Fleeting life; life in this world [Olam Hazeh].

'Olam Hazeh' is in contrast to 'Haolam Ha-ba'- 'The world to come' or 'the after life.' The phrase 'Chayim Olam' refers to eternal life; life in the world to come - Haolam Ha-ba.



Aionios refers to an age. There are temporal ages and there is an eternal age. When the New Testament uses the term, the age to come, it is referring to the eternal age - eternity future.

The believer has eternal life the moment he believes in Christ as Savior. That eternal life is forever, and as a result of having an eternal relationship with God, the believer who is growing spiritually comes to know God better and better and will be the recipient of greater grace blessings here in time (James 4:6).

Again, go back and read the original post in its entirety.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-29-2011 at 08:28 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 08:22 AM
 
21,800 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Thanks, Mike ! Excellent post
You're welcome CM. I'm glad you liked it.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2011, 08:23 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,612,233 times
Reputation: 688
I don't think I would describe Mike's post as excellent, it is based on assumption and inaccuracy.

If there really were an 'eternal' age - then that would be an age that had no end and had no beginning.

from dictionary.com
eternal: without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing

In that sense the only truly eternal thing is God.

However we sometimes use 'eternal' in a metaphorical sense meaning lasting forever or seeming to last forever.

There is a common error of understanding that there are only two ages: this age and the age to come - therefore the assumption is made that the next age is endless.

However the bible speaks of past ages, and future ages to come - yes, ages plural. There are many more than two ages. The bible also speaks of a time of the "consummation of the ages" - when all the ages will have finished. God is working out His plan of salvation in successive ages - probably more than we know. And ultimately the bible speaks of a time when God will be all in all.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top