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Old 04-02-2011, 09:10 AM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,078,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Well, maybe I should allow you to describe the nature of punishment here. Tell us what kind of punishment do people face for denying God and living in sin all their life. It sounds like you are saying it is severe enough to scare people into belief.
Scaring people into believing is the tactic of religion, it is all religion has, combined with the fact that fear is a powerful emotion on the human mind.

But it fails totally when reason and rational thought do not allow fear based on such absurdities to invade the mind. Some are fortunate enough to have never been so programed in their formative years, others evict these absurdities from their mind through reason later in life, while many are doomed to a life time of caving to the fear.

To compound the absurdities, the absurdities that create the fear are based on the absurd belief that someone or something besides man wrote the book of fears you cleave to so tightly.

The problem with your message is the reference material you cite to substantiate the reason behind your message, and old book written by men at a time just about everything from the sun to diseases that killed people was a complete mystery, therefore it must be attributed to some 'unseen being'.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:12 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,366,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Well, there is a difference in confessing and believing while you live, and having no choice during the white throne judgment. Everyone will see their error and knee down during judgment, just like criminals will stand up in courtroom to hear their sentence. The kneeling and standing up won't buy them a pardon. It is definitely not proof of universal salvation.
This is a ridiculous double standard you have. You have gone on and on in the past about how God won't "force" anyone into salvation, but you believe quite the opposite - those who bow have "no choice" and God "forces" them into eternal torment.

Its not good to "force" into salvation, but it is good to "force" into H-E-DOUBLE-HOCKEYSTICKS?


Quote:
Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Judgment is good, we will all be praising God for His righteous judgments. Will you?
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,592,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Well, there is a difference in confessing and believing while you live, and having no choice during the white throne judgment. Everyone will see their error and knee down during judgment, just like criminals will stand up in courtroom to hear their sentence. The kneeling and standing up won't buy them a pardon. It is definitely not proof of universal salvation.

Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
But the scriptures are what is important here. And they show that EVERYONE will confess that Jesus is Lord and that is ONLY done by the Holy Spirit. That is irrefutable proof. If you don't believe that - then ask yourself, what is preventing you from believing it? Is that which is preventing you from believing it it rational? - logical?
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
57,928 posts, read 31,450,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This is a ridiculous double standard you have. You have gone on and on in the past about how God won't "force" anyone into salvation, but you believe quite the opposite - those who bow have "no choice" and God "forces" them into eternal torment.

Its not good to "force" into salvation, but it is good to "force" into H-E-DOUBLE-HOCKEYSTICKS?

Judgment is good, we will all be praising God for His righteous judgments. Will you?
I never said He does not send people to hell, I only said He will not force anyone into salvation. This has been made painfully clear in the Bible. There is no double standard. People send themselves to hell by rejecting God.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
57,928 posts, read 31,450,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
But the scriptures are what is important here. And they show that EVERYONE will confess that Jesus is Lord and that is ONLY done by the Holy Spirit. That is irrefutable proof. If you don't believe that - then ask yourself, what is preventing you from believing it? Is that which is preventing you from believing it it rational? - logical?
You are taking two verses talking about different things, and trying to make them support each other, but it doesn't work that way. One talks about living people, and the other talks about peole who have already died. If this is the foundation of your belief, then you have built on sand.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:55 AM
 
37,075 posts, read 24,939,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Being a believer means having been born again into the Spirit, and having a personal relationship with the Lord.
Being a believer means having been "born of God" (spiritual conception, begotten) as a "spiritual embryo," and having a "maturing" spiritual relationship with the Lord . . . developing all the "spiritual attributes" needed for "rebirth as Spirit" upon our death. We are not "born again" until we die and are successfully "reborn as Spirit." "That which is born of flesh is flesh . . . that which is born of Spirit is Spirit." None of us alive today are born of Spirit ("born again"). . . we are born of flesh . . . but we are "born of God"("begotten" spiritually).
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:10 AM
 
37,075 posts, read 24,939,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You preach the consequences are nothing to be worried about. That is what I am saying with the "twisted ankle" story.

Well, maybe I should allow you to describe the nature of punishment here. Tell us what kind of punishment do people face for denying God and living in sin all their life. It sounds like you are saying it is severe enough to scare people into belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Did you mean this reply to Mystic? He was the one talking about it, not me. Personally I do not believe because of fear.
Moderator cut deleted You may not believe because of fear . . . but your major gripe about UR is that there is no fear of consequences to promote belief in God. It is also your most consistent lie about UR. We have always and repeatedly maintained that we reap what we sow. You do not consider that sufficiently "severe enough to scare people into belief" . . . it's only a"twisted ankle." Moderator cut deleted You have already freely admitted you do not actually read the UR explanations you condemn and criticize. You are simply spouting rote condemnations in ignorance of its actual beliefs.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-02-2011 at 10:20 AM.. Reason: Save June some time
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:10 AM
 
7,782 posts, read 10,389,667 times
Reputation: 3346
Folks, there has been an awful lot of attacking banter back and forth here. June does not wish to have to close this thread, but will be forced to do so unless folks remain on topic and address the OP without attacking one another. Difficult, perhaps, but thems the rules....
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
57,928 posts, read 31,450,247 times
Reputation: 9296
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Moderator cut deleted You may not believe because of fear . . . but your major gripe about UR is that there is no fear of consequences to promote belief in God.
No, I have never made such claim. I do not believe UR because it is not scriptural.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,740,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Twin not true, all will eventually bow the knee and confess Jesus Christ is Lord. Like i said to you Twin you have limited the Love of God to 3 score and 10 years for each man, anything more is a bonus to him before he passes on where you believe, God ceases to be what he IS(Love). I could quite easily use the scripture which you Fundy's use to support so many times to marr the character and nature of God,and use it to speak of the wonder of his Love,Grace and Mercy that there is hope beyond hell for man, you know the one "my ways are not your ways, neither my thoughts are your thoughts, i could say his ways are passed finding it out to justify why God is able to save man beyond the grave too, but i refuse to stoop to that.I stand firm that God is unchanging He is Love,He's always been love, and always be love for our short stay on this planet and beyond it.

Bowing the Knee is not an outward thing, it's an acknowledgement in your heart that He is Lord, i bow the knee daily, but it's in my heart.

Confessing Jesus is Lord is also not an outward thing, it's an expression of God from within made manifest without.

This is why i reject "I believe in Jesus and the Bible" confession it's no different from saying "Abraham is our Father and we believe what the Torah says". Jesus had some strong words for those outwardly confessing this,he said you honor me with your lips but your heart is far from me.
pcamps,
I've re-read this and just simply say that " I 'reject "I believe in Jesus and the Bible' " is in opposition to:
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The only thing that happens to people after physical death is to be judged...not to be given the choice of confession after they realize how wrong they were.

Ezekiel 18:20
The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him,

and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
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