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Old 04-04-2011, 10:18 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,785 posts, read 9,502,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.Ezekiel 18:20

Why you believe this is talking about eternal torment or annihilation is beyond me. To be carnally minded is sin and death, God is not mocked a man reaps whay he sows in this life, in this life Twin, none of us are exempt from this law God has set in place, not even the bible quoting unbelieving christians are exempt from it.We all reap what we sow in this life.
"Why you believe this is talking about eternal torment or ************ is beyond me." ...... I'm not surprised that you wouldn't make the connection. (annihilation is not scriptural also)

The failure to see that what we reap in this life also effects what is sown in the next (after all the back and forth's) is a wanton blindness. The extreme liberties that human logic is being used so as not make the connections is astounding.

When God said "you will surely die" that wasn't just physically. It is God's will that the unbeliever will be charged "die" eternally for remaining as such.

As it has been said before, Satan uses the UR message so that the unbeliever trusts that God will not charge their sin against them.


God's view of unbelief :
  • Those who reject Jesus Christ, before they die, are condemned already (John 3:18)
  • Those who reject Jesus Christ, after they die, will go to hell forever (Mark 3:29; Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8

Last edited by twin.spin; 04-04-2011 at 10:23 AM.. Reason: added thought
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:30 AM
 
Location: East Coast
28,627 posts, read 19,029,655 times
Reputation: 1975
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"Why you believe this is talking about eternal torment or ************ is beyond me." ...... I'm not surprised that you wouldn't make the connection. (annihilation is not scriptural also)

The failure to see that what we reap in this life also effects what is sown in the next (after all the back and forth's) is a wanton blindness. The extreme liberties that human logic is being used so as not make the connections is astounding.

When God said "you will surely die" that wasn't just physically. It is God's will that the unbeliever will be charged "die" eternally for remaining as such.

As it has been said before, Satan uses the UR message so that the unbeliever trusts that God will not charge their sin against them.
There is no mention of eternal torment in that Ezekiel scripture and neither is there in "you shall surely die" scripture, you are reading that into it,and the reason you are is because you have consented to eternal torment from the day you entertained the thought of it in your mind.


Saul consented to the death of Stephen, but he had a change of mind when Jesus Christ made himself known to him, prior to that he believed stoning a man to death was scriptual, and that is whe he consented to it.(he read that into the scripture, just like you are with eternal torment).
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:44 AM
 
351 posts, read 275,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Two main reasons:
1.) Jesus said that who ever believes will never die.
2.) It is wanton distortion to say that "eternal" only applies to heaven but then not to hell.
3.) Jesus said it will happen,.. Jesus said they will never be able enter.


Hi twin.spin

1.) Jesus said he who believes in me will not die "to the age" check out the original and the word aion is there which means to the age.

2.) Again we are disagreeing what aion means. I think it means to the age. you think it means eternal. This argument will rage over and over because when we assign different meanings to the greek words we can not agree on the message the verse is meant to sent other than our interpretation of the rest of the Scriptures so all is in harmony. I believe God will save all and you think he will send most to hell. We both argue that the way we interpret scripture bolsters our side.

3.) Jesus said they will not enter the narrow gate and they won't, only his elect that will rule with him in the kingdom of God will enter there, but they will judge and chastise the rest and all will be reconciled to God and Jesus will turn the whole thing over to the Father so God can be all in all.

Quote:
UR leaves out belief (faith) as a requirement that God is pleased with
UR leaves out belief must be present before death
UR leaves out death as the end of time for grace.

UR ultimately claims two plans of salvation
UR ultimatly accuses God of injustice
UR ultimatly seeks to dethrone Jesus as Judge
UR ultimatly demands to know the Majesty of God
UR also knows that faith in Jesus is a requirement for salvation
UR does not think we must repent before we physically die but that if we do not we will be resurrected and judged, chastise and will repent.
UR believed that death does not end God's plan for us and that he will accomplish all of his will and grace never ends

UR has only one plan of salvation, through Jesus only
UR claims that God is most just, no infinite punishment for a finite crime.
UR knows that Jesus will judge us all
UR knows that God is all in all and always will be
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,785 posts, read 9,502,031 times
Reputation: 1290
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi twin.spin

1.) Jesus said he who believes in me will not die "to the age" check out the original and the word aion is there which means to the age.

2.) Again we are disagreeing what aion means. I think it means to the age. you think it means eternal. This argument will rage over and over because when we assign different meanings to the greek words we can not agree on the message the verse is meant to sent other than our interpretation of the rest of the Scriptures so all is in harmony. I believe God will save all and you think he will send most to hell. We both argue that the way we interpret scripture bolsters our side.

3.) Jesus said they will not enter the narrow gate and they won't, only his elect that will rule with him in the kingdom of God will enter there, but they will judge and chastise the rest and all will be reconciled to God and Jesus will turn the whole thing over to the Father so God can be all in all.


UR also knows that faith in Jesus is a requirement for salvation
UR does not think we must repent before we physically die but that if we do not we will be resurrected and judged, chastise and will repent.
UR believed that death does not end God's plan for us and that he will accomplish all of his will and grace never ends

UR has only one plan of salvation, through Jesus only
UR claims that God is most just, no infinite punishment for a finite crime.
UR knows that Jesus will judge us all
UR knows that God is all in all and always will be
I appreciate your response...but then if "age" is not eternal concerning hell, then neither is eternal for life in heaven. Can't have it both ways.

"UR does not think we must repent before we physically die but that if we do not we will be resurrected and judged, chastise and will repent."
This pretty much sums up the second plan of salvation....for all the obvious reasons.

Here is the alternative:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Godís wrath remains on him.Ē
"Will not see life" is the finality to when "the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him" Ezekiel 18:20


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Old 04-04-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,240 posts, read 7,843,855 times
Reputation: 17778
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I appreciate your response...but then if "age" is not eternal concerning hell, then neither is eternal for life in heaven. Can't have it both ways.

"UR does not think we must repent before we physically die but that if we do not we will be resurrected and judged, chastise and will repent."
This pretty much sums up the second plan of salvation....for all the obvious reasons.

Here is the alternative:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Godís wrath remains on him.Ē
"Will not see life" is the finality to when "the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him" Ezekiel 18:20

Amen... Twin !!
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:17 AM
 
351 posts, read 275,486 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I appreciate your response...but then if "age" is not eternal concerning hell, then neither is eternal for life in heaven. Can't have it both ways.
"UR does not think we must repent before we physically die but that if we do not we will be resurrected and judged, chastise and will repent."
This pretty much sums up the second plan of salvation....for all the obvious reasons.

Here is the alternative:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Godís wrath remains on him.Ē
"Will not see life" is the finality to when "the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him" Ezekiel 18:20


Hey twin.spin

First what is hell. hell is the unseen just like sheol and hades, we have made it mean a place of eternal flames and torture which it is not. In the middle ages if you said you were going to hell they would probably expect you to bring back potatos because hell was used as a name for a root cellar, the unseen.

Second hell or sheol, hades whichever you want to call it will not be eternal as will the kingdom of God not be eternal but that does not mean heaven will not be eternal because the Kingdom of God is when Jesus will rule with his elect and he will put all enemies under his feet the last will be death, (the second death is the lake of fire) He will then turn everything over to the Father who will be all in all and he is eternal always has been and always will be.

The plan for salvation is always the same, accept Jesus, be judged, Chastised, repent, be cleansed, and reborn. whether before or after physical death does not matter the plan is the same. there is no other way for anyone it is all one.
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